Auxiliary Switch | Project Golden Rule (LED Version)

[Eric_Inovelli]

Answering on mobile so apologies if I’m being short, but the Tigers are crushing the Texans and I have some spare time to chat!

@mamber

Its a bit disappointing to give up those goals, but totally understood.

The fight is not over, I am definitely trying my best as I really think this would be an amazing aux switch and really help us be differentiated.

I’m trying to put the story together for investors that it’s worth sacrificing margin. It’s an uphill battle, but I’m working on it!

@mamber

But I wonder if that already-designed-and-built platform could be leveraged/re-marketed as a lower-cost Smart AUX switch/dimmer?

Possibly. I’ll reply more to this and @PJF’s comment. It’s a good idea, I’m just not sure how low we can get costs.

@mamber

I agree. And while its less exciting to have no leds on the aux switches, I would prefer a same-brand (Inovelli) simple aux switch than have to mix with another brand just to wire up all the multi-way lighting that is more and more prevalent in modern smart homes.

@Sky320

To me I would rather have a matched switch that works and hand my money to a company that backs its products as you all do.

Yes, this is definitely the argument for an aux switch in general. Even if we have to forego the LED bar, at least we would be able to no have to tell customers to buy a separate brand. At the same time, seeing the cost of the non-LED switch, HomeSeer/GE/Honeywell are making a killing on them. Upwards of 70% margins (dayummmm).

@Sky320

If you can get around the tariff issue and create the LED aux switch that would be great but more important to have a switch function and feels like a premium product. The GE works but it took a bit to get them to work routinely.

Agree - I’m talking to an importer this Thurs, so I should have an answer then. Another option is manufacturing in Taiwan which may help (labor is higher, but there’s no tariff).

@coreystup

For Maestro and RadioRA2, Lutron’s companion switches and dimmers do not have any indicators on them. And I’m guessing it’s for all the reasons you’ve been saying. If it were a good idea or worth it, they would (especially for the dimmer).

This is an excellent point. Thank you!

@HAJeremyC

Hello, I understand that 500 series limited space for new features, witch would effect Z-Wave Aux version. Also the lead time on 700 series is crazy basic on my googling, with that said please do make Z-Wave version of aux switch, I think with what 700 series offers it worth the wait.

Agree - it’s pushing 52 weeks right now which is insane. We’re definitely trying to consider an aux switch which works with both the Red and Blue series and if we can’t, we’ll absolutely come out with a Z-Wave version as that business is not going anywhere any time soon. Lots of demand from very large companies.

@PJF

I don’t see the point without a LED bar. The Homeseer seems to be a pretty close match, which is all you’d also get without a config button and LED strip.

I definitely understand this point. Selfishly we’d rather make money than give it to our competitors. In addition, we have a lot of B2B potential and it’s hard to say, “you can buy our switches, but if you want an aux switch, you’ll have to by [competition]”. But yes, it wouldn’t be different at all from HomeSeer/GE/Honeywell. We’ll get the price down for sure, which should help a bit to differentiate.

@PJF

How much cheaper can a RED dimmer be produced for if you eliminate the unnecessary power components like the relay, MOSFETs, Load and traveler screws etc? Everything not needed to power up the zwave radio via 120V fed into the L and N terminals. Then, new software for it to be used as an associated aux switch.

This is an excellent question and exactly the exercise we went through when working on this.

So, we came to two conclusions:

1. If we need an LED bar, it’s still going to need some, “smarts” to work properly (sync with smart switch and/or show notifications).
2. If no LED bar, it will cost significantly less.

[PJF]

The reason I questioned removing the excess components from a red dimmer is because it should be possibly to actually do that. Delete all the extra from the BOM and assemble a version with the bare minimum of parts needed. That would make a signaling only device that could be associated to directly control another switch or anything else it could be associated with.

The problem is this would make an association only device and not one that can be wired as an aux switch. I don’t consider this as a huge deal because you have to change a for the aux switch so why not setup an associated switch instead. But, others may not like that.

[stu1811]

@Eric_Inovelli

So, we came to two conclusions:

1. If we need an LED bar, it’s still going to need some, “smarts” to work properly (sync with smart switch and/or show notifications).
2. If no LED bar, it will cost significantly less.

If you do the stripped down version it will require a neutral since there will not be a load to leak current. That’s fine for me since I have neutrals in my boxes now. I’m actually running associated lzw31-sn.

[PJF]

I installed one aux switch 3-way circuit in the new house and I’m going to replace it and associate a black dimmer to a red dimmer instead, just to get the matching LED strip. There is another location where I could do a 3-way and it will be associated dimmers too.

I’m fussy and I like the matching long LED strip so I’m even using some dimmers where switches could be.

@stu1811, you are correct that a powered device would eliminate using it in a non-neutral setup. But, it should work in any neutral setup since an aux switch also requires 2 wires to connect.

[Eric_Inovelli]

Update – unfortunately (I’m beginning to hate this word) the tariff guy did not pull through and offered a solution that wasn’t feasible for us to work with (the two options were: ship over multiple shipments, but keep the value under $800 OR drop-ship customer orders directly from China).

So, we decided internally to not move forward with the LED bar option at this time. Our thought process is the following (for those curious):

• We’d have to sell the LED aux switch for at least $28.50 to hit the bare minimum margins (and these are the minimum Inovelli margins, not the margins investors want us to hit) – whereas we could sell the non-LED aux switch for $17.50 and make acceptable margins).
• The switch still has to have some, “smarts” in it to communicate with the smart switch (to emulate the LED bar status level and also notifications) so there is room for failure here as it would require a hub that speaks ZigBee/Matter to work properly with our Z-Wave switches and we’re unsure of how good TouchLink works with ZigBee and how complicated it would make things in large houses
• We’re still unclear as to whether or not the LED bar would work (along with the secondary ZigBee chip) in a non-neutral setting
• Since this is targeted to mass market, their level of experience with technology is likely less than our current customer and we’ve found that our products can sometimes be too complicated for our current customers which are already tech savvy. Therefore coming out with an aux switch that has all these, “conditions” (ie: you have to buy a bypass in non-neutral, you have to bind it to the main switch via Touchlink, you have to setup an automation if you’re using our Z-Wave switches, etc) just doesn’t make sense and would likely lead to a bad initial experience with the brand.
• If you really want two matching switches, we would encourage you to purchase multiple smart switches as they will be able to detect another smart switch and would only be an extra $7 (I know it adds up, but in the grand scheme of things, it sounds like most people wouldn’t mind it).

I’m not writing off this project yet as I do believe there is a market for a unique aux switch – but it will have to wait.

I’ll be creating a poll shortly regarding the design for the new aux switch. and closing this thread to create a new one around the new design.

[mamber]

@Eric_Inovelli

If you really want two matching switches, we would encourage you to purchase multiple smart switches

I know there are several of us who have ended up doing this while waiting. It mostly works, but there is at least one ‘fix’ that is needed to the firmware to keep the LED bars more in sync. I documented this back in May and I thought I remembered @EricM_Inovelli acknowleging it. But it hasn’t been fixed yet.

[BUG?] Association not sending 'duration' parameter with MultilevelSet(value,duration) commands

I believe this is a bug in all existing versions of Red Dimmer firmware When a z-wave association is set up with Groups 3-4 (dimming events) and the Source (master) dimmer is issued a MultiLevelSet(value,duration) command with the optional ‘duration’ parameter it appears to only send MultiLevelSet(value) without the duration to the associated dimmers. The Destination (slave) dimmers adjust to the value level at their own default rate, not the duration that was issued on the master.

@Eric_Inovelli

purchase multiple smart switches as they will be able to detect another smart switch

What do you mean be that? I’ve had to manually configure them. Not seen anything about two smart switches detecting each other. Am I missing out on a secret feature?

@Eric_Inovelli

and would only be an extra $7

Also confused by that. If the new non-LED-Bar Aux switch is $18 doesn’t’ that make the “dual smart switch” alternative more like an extra $24? ($18 for the non-led aux versus $42 for the Smart Red Dimmer configured as an Aux)

[rohan]

@Eric_Inovelli

@Eric_Inovelli

If you really want two matching switches, we would encourage you to purchase multiple smart switches as they will be able to detect another smart switch and would only be an extra $7 (I know it adds up, but in the grand scheme of things, it sounds like most people wouldn’t mind it)

I’ve considered this approach before, but had a couple of reasons that make me hesitate:

1. Using Aux switches eliminates a zwave controller dependency. If the controller goes down the switches are still hardwired to each other and are able to communicate. With multiple switches, I would be uncomfortable with the risk of the controller going down and only the primary (load connected) switch working. Is there a way to wire the dimmers or switches together using the aux terminals to provide at least on/off and dimming if the controller goes down?

2. Association group limitations. I have a hallway in my house that has one set of lights controlled at 4 locations. And a second light controlled at 2 locations. It makes logical sense for those to be treated as a single load (both sets of lights come on together and match dimming). This works currently using associations because I have two dimmers and the rest are aux switches. If I swapped all of the aux switches to dimmers, I would have 6, which would exceed the limit of associations (5).

Curious if you have any suggestions on those.

[mamber]

@rohan

With multiple switches, I would be uncomfortable with the risk of the controller going down and only the primary (load connected) switch working

In this scenario the recommondation is to use Associations, not Scenes. Associations are direct communication between the associated devices and do not depend on the hub/controller

@rohan

I would have 6, which would exceed the limit of associations (5).

I agree this limit is a bit restrictive and could be an issue. Seems unexpectedly low to me. But I suspect this is a zwave limitation and not something Inovelli has any control over. I guess that is a case where Scenes on the hub would be the solution instead of Associations

[Eric_Inovelli]

@mamber

I know there are several of us who have ended up doing this while waiting. It mostly works, but there is at least one ‘fix’ that is needed to the firmware to keep the LED bars more in sync. I documented this back in May and I thought I remembered @EricM_Inovelli acknowleging it. But it hasn’t been fixed yet.

@mamber

What do you mean be that? I’ve had to manually configure them. Not seen anything about two smart switches detecting each other. Am I missing out on a secret feature?

@rohan

Curious if you have any suggestions on those.

Yeah, these are great points – let me try to shed some light (pun intended) on what’s going to be different with the new approach via 2x smart switches.

With our Z-Wave switches, our scope of work to the manufacturer (aka PRD) included the ability for smart switches to work together.

The manufacturer interpreted this as it can work together via Associations, whereas we meant that they would work together like a traditional 3-Way switch setup (ie: three wires).

As some of you may unfortunately remember… we were 6+ mo behind schedule on the initial switches and when we discovered this didn’t work as anticipated, it was around 3mo behind already and if we added this feature, the PCB design would have to be changed, adding additional time. We didn’t think people would want 2x smart switches hooked up to each other as with our Gen 1’s, everyone loved the cost savings of using dumb switches in a 3-Way.

So, we said, “ok, rather than redesigning everything, let’s roll with the Association technique”.

Well, more people than we thought use 2x smart switches together so we will be pushing the new manufacturer to include this in the Matter design while allowing any future Inovelli Z-Wave switches to do the same.

NET: Unfortunately our current Z-Wave switches have this limitation – however, moving forward the ZigBee/Matter switches will have what we’re asking for (multiple smart switches working together via hardwiring).

@rohan – hopefully this helps clarify things? Basically, you wouldn’t need Associations as the switches would be hardwired together similarly to how a normal 3-Way switch works.

@mamber

Also confused by that. If the new non-LED-Bar Aux switch is $18 doesn’t’ that make the “dual smart switch” alternative more like an extra $24? ($18 for the non-led aux versus $42 for the Smart Red Dimmer configured as an Aux)

Sorry, it was poorly worded. What I meant by this was the LED version aux switch would be $28.50 and the Matter switch would be $35 (yes, it would be more for the Z-Wave version), so it’s an extra $7 over and above the LED aux switch.

[BrenenP]

Disappointed that I’ll have to continue using my GE for the foreseeable future.

[rohan]

@Eric_Inovelli

Well, more people than we thought use 2x smart switches together so we will be pushing the new manufacturer to include this in the Matter design while allowing any future Inovelli Z-Wave switches to do the same.

NET: Unfortunately our current Z-Wave switches have this limitation – however, moving forward the ZigBee/Matter switches will have what we’re asking for (multiple smart switches working together via hardwiring).

@rohan – hopefully this helps clarify things? Basically, you wouldn’t need Associations as the switches would be hardwired together similarly to how a normal 3-Way switch works.

Thanks for sharing the details and the history @Eric_Inovelli. At this point I’ve got a house full of Z-Wave (mostly Inovelli stuff!) with no plans of switching to Zigbee/Thread/Matter.

If I’m understanding you correctly, the next version of the Z-Wave switches will support direct hardwired support? But to get that, I would need to replace both the current Red series switch/dimmer and the hardwired Aux switch?

And the alternative would be to use the current Red series, but with associations?

Any thoughts on the association group limitation of 5? Is that something that is a Z-Wave specific limitation or could it be increased in a firmware update?

[PJF]

Isn’t it possible to associate a slave switch to the master and then associate another slave switch to that slave?

[eric.dalquist]

@rohan

If I’m understanding you correctly, the next version of the Z-Wave switches will support direct hardwired support? But to get that, I would need to replace both the current Red series switch/dimmer and the hardwired Aux switch?

This is what I’m most interested in. I’ll happily get “full” smart switches for every switch if I can wire all my 3-way/4-way together on an aux wire and have them use that wire to communicate. I did several trials with association-group based linking and while it works and was reliable there was noticeable latency (0.5-2 seconds) for the main switch to respond to presses on the aux switches.

[Eric_Inovelli]

@rohan

Thanks for sharing the details and the history @Eric_Inovelli. At this point I’ve got a house full of Z-Wave (mostly Inovelli stuff!) with no plans of switching to Zigbee/Thread/Matter.

Definitely understand that one – I am in the same predicament lol.

@rohan

If I’m understanding you correctly, the next version of the Z-Wave switches will support direct hardwired support? But to get that, I would need to replace both the current Red series switch/dimmer and the hardwired Aux switch?

Yes, that is the goal. We would essentially take the same hardware that we’re currently developing and create a Z-Wave version of it.

Unfortunately, as it’s a hardware issue (where the hardwired smart switches do not work, but require associations) it does mean that they will need to be swapped out if you want the hardwired option

@rohan

And the alternative would be to use the current Red series, but with associations?

Correct. Depending on your hub (if it’s local), it’s pretty quick – I have this setup with Hubitat.

@rohan

Any thoughts on the association group limitation of 5? Is that something that is a Z-Wave specific limitation or could it be increased in a firmware update?

That’s a great question for @EricM_Inovelli – I can’t remember if this is a Z-Wave limitation or if we just didn’t have enough room on the switch to add more than 5 associations.

@PJF

Isn’t it possible to associate a slave switch to the master and then associate another slave switch to that slave?

Another great question for @EricM_Inovelli lol – I don’t believe this is possible, but Eric can confirm.

@eric.dalquist

I did several trials with association-group based linking and while it works and was reliable there was noticeable latency (0.5-2 seconds) for the main switch to respond to presses on the aux switches.

Yeah, I’ve noticed the same thing

[EricM_Inovelli]

@rohan

Any thoughts on the association group limitation of 5? Is that something that is a Z-Wave specific limitation or could it be increased in a firmware update?

No reason other than that there has to be a limit and it seemed 5 would satisfy our users at the time. The more associations you have the greater the possibility of a network issue while controlling other devices. We will probably bump that up to 10 for people that are doing more than 5 bulbs though.

@PJF

Isn’t it possible to associate a slave switch to the master and then associate another slave switch to that slave?

I would recommend you associate each slave to the master in this scenario.

[mamber]

@EricM_Inovelli

We will probably bump that up to 10 for people that are doing more than 5 bulbs though.

Is that limit in the driver (DTH) or in the firmware? If its in the driver, I don’t mind hacking my own personal copy until you release an official update

[jtronicus]

I am pretty sure it it a firmware limit. From what I have seen in the zwave specs, the theoretical limit is 255 devices. However, Im sure there are also technical (memory/storage) limitations because the device likely needs to store the routing tables for each associated device.

[rohan]

@Eric_Inovelli

Unfortunately, as it’s a hardware issue (where the hardwired smart switches do not work, but require associations) it does mean that they will need to be swapped out if you want the hardwired option

Got it. Sounds like a good option for the few areas where I absolutely need to be hardwired. Unless you can make Aux switches with multi tap and an LED bar .

@Eric_Inovelli

Correct. Depending on your hub (if it’s local), it’s pretty quick – I have this setup with Hubitat.

Yeah, I’m using Home Assistant with Z-WaveJS. It’s pretty quick, but not as quick as having a hardwired switch.

@EricM_Inovelli

We will probably bump that up to 10 for people that are doing more than 5 bulbs though.

Excellent. Hopefully this will make it in the next beta firmware.

[EricM_Inovelli]

Yep, as @jtronicus said, it is a firmware limitation.

[Eric_Inovelli]

Closing out this thread to replace it with the Non-LED design. I will open it back up if we decide to pursue this, but as of now, it’s too difficult with the tariffs in place to get it to a price point we want.

New project can be found here: Auxiliary Switch | Project Golden Rule (Non-LED Version)