That is a good point. If that isn’t the reason the CSA didn’t choose their own protocol for Matter I would be supprised.
The thing I want to look more into is dot dot and how it fits into all this. I know it is based on the Zigbee application layer, and I have heard it is what Matter is based on.
I think it became obvious to everyone working on Matter, including the former Zigbee alliance, that it would be a colossal waste of time to reengineer zigbee’s network layer to IPv6 and disentagle/remove the built-in Zigbee application layer because after all that time/effort/debugging they would have done nothing more than delay Matter to recreate Thread.
Add to that google via nest had created and used Thread since 2014 or so and Apple had already put a thread capable 802.15.4 radio in their homepod mini upon release in November 16, 2020 (so I would guess they had final spec on hardware a year or so before that). The CSA absolutely needs at least 2 out of the big 3 to make this work. Looks like all 3 remain on board for now.
Dotdot does sound a lot like the precursor to the Matter application layer.
Zigbee coordinators based on SiLabs EFR32 radios should be able to handle both zigbee and thread concurrently:
It’s early days and the 7.0.x sdk still has some bugs. But it’s very promising.
I have to say this is great news, not necessarily for the device market, though I can see the benefit from the companies stand point, but for the hub market. Now I need to see what Home Assistant Yellow is using.
Just noticed the handle in the conversation. I think I know what they are using.
Sorry if this has been mentioned but if the switch is hooked up with a neutral wire and at 100% “brightness” does it act as a relay with no PWM/flicker?
Are you asking about smart bulb mode (ie: full power to the load)? Sorry, I’ve been writing a manual for the last few days and my brain is fried 
No I mean if you use this switch to control a standard dimmable LED ‘dumb’ bulb. Excuse my probably not accurate technical speak, I barely understand what im asking:
When hooked up to a dimmer the power to the bulb is pulsed (PWM) based on the level of brightness you choose via the switch. However, at maximum brightness I was hoping it somehow avoids the dimming circuit and provides regular full AC waveform so the light will be PWM free. I guess based on the (on/off & dimmer) description I thought maybe this is what you meant but in hindsight I guess this is the same style of dimming and the name is meant to describe the paddle style switch that also has long press for dimming.
What leads you to believe that this dimmer is going use PWM?
Interesting, I’ll have to defer to @EricM_Inovelli or @Darwyn_Inovelli on this one.
So I can better understand, what is the reasoning behind this question? I’m just honestly trying to understand so that I can help me explain it in case the question comes up again.
Sorry, sometimes I wish I had more of a technical/engineering background and could help more.
I’d be surprised if anything besides PWM was used for dimming. My understanding is that it is pretty much the standard method for dimming a LED bulb. I’m guessing they are concerned about flicker of the LED bulb while at full power. I could see this as being interesting if you are someone whose bulbs are typically at 100% most of the time. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen studies saying there may be health issues associated with the flicker of LED bulbs even though its invisible to your eye (just appears dimmer). I think they are asking if internally on the switch when the dimmer is at 100% if it uses the same circuitry as the on/off mode, which means that there would be no PWM applied to the output. However if the duty cycle of the PWM is 100% there would be no flicker. So assuming the dimmer treats fully on as truly on there should be no flicker at 100% from the dimming circuitry.
Primarily asking cause dimmers can cause flicker and other random issues depending on what you pair them up with while straight on/off relays rarely have issues. I guess I was hoping for something that could be the best of both worlds. I may be making it more complex than it needs to be.
I guess another way to ask this question is whether this product is any different from simply a dimmer that has a firmware setting that can restrict brightness levels to 0 or 100. If not, then it really is just a dimmer (not really what I’d consider an on/off switch) with a clever option on available dim levels. This is not to demean the design - just that there are times when you would really like to know that the “switch” is a relay that fully disconnects the load when off.
Makes sense - ok, waiting on a response from the manufacturer.
What I envisioned initially was two different types of relays - one for if the switch is a dimmer and one if it was on/off.
However, the more I’m thinking about this now, the more I’m wondering if they just used the same one and used the firmware to change between on/off and dimming. This would explain how they solved for the on/off, non-neutral compatibility. But, then if this was the case, I’m not sure how it would be approved to work on fans for on/off as our Red Series Dimmer is not approved to work on fans despite it’s ability to be switched to an, “on/off” via firmware.
Anyway, stay tuned!
Wait, the Red Series dimmers can be switched to on/off via firmware? Is that possible for the end user to do?
Some of my Red Dimmers flicker abominably when turning on. I put them in a basement remodel where every switch is controlling identical light fixtures, but some switches flicker and others don’t.
It makes for a really annoying 5 seconds every time I turn it on. I’ve turned off/sped up all the ramp rate stuff, but would love to make them just basic on/off switches.
Yeah they can, “mimic” an on/off. We still sold a dedicated on/off bc the dimmer isn’t truly an on/off and isn’t rated as such.
But yes, if you set the instant on parameter (ie: remove the 700ms delay), change the ramp rate amd dim speed to 0, it should come on instantly to 100%.
On the reds you can just set SBM (parameter 52) to On/Off mode and it takes care of the other settings to make it act like an on off switch
Even though it mimics an on/off it is still a dimmer at it’s core. You don’t want to connect it to a ceiling fan and some non-dimmable bulbs may still buzz.
My understanding of this topic is that, for the most part, it is the circuit in the bulb that can cause the problem not the switch. That is if I am reading the posts right.
In a dimmer compatible led (there use to be non compatible led bulbs) the bulb takes the in coming alternating current coming in and uses it to power the circuit that controls the bulb.
Based on the current coming in it decides what the brightness level of the led should be and provides a pulsed direct current to achieve the brightness level it thinks it should provide.
One of the common problems the bulb runs into is it isn’t getting enough power. This can be fixed in dimmers that allow you to set a minimum brightness.
Another problem is the build of the circuit. I think it was Hackaday that published an article about a bulb from the UAE because its build quality is far superior dut to regulations. If the law isn’t there to back up the customer, the manufacturer… some manufacturers just want to push the cheapest product that works for the minimum acceptable period of time. After a period of time you get humming, flickering, and whatever other problem the cheap design of the circuit gives you.
I haven’t placed blame on the stepped brightness I have noticed in some of my bulbs.
you do realize that a “full AC waveform” is not pulse-free . It is still pulsing at 60 times per second. Adding a relay does not remove the natural pulse width that exists on all AC power.
Actually the modern dimmers work by “chopping” the normal AC sine wave either on the front of the wave as it moves away from the 0 point or on the back of the wave by driving it back to 0 early in the cycle. Either reduces the area “under the curve” which is proportional to the power delivered to the actual light. The front chop creates a very abrupt “power on” event which the LED driver may have difficulty handling cleanly which is why the trailing edge dimmers are generally considered better. In either case, the big difference from old incandescent bulbs is that there is no smoothing that comes from the fact that the old bulbs heat to produce light, which automatically has the side effect of averaging the light output. With the digital reality of LEDs the driver needs to modulate the light electronically. This is what can cause buzzing and flickering when the driver can’t completely cope with the weird waveform.
