4-way switch problem

Switches Wiring Discussion
#21

So this exact same wiring with the Lutron dimmer has been working for 10+ years (all 3 switches, never failed) and it still works. I am not sure if I am operating under the wrong assumption that simply replacing the Lutron dimmer which is in the source box with constant hot by an Inovelli Red with no further changes in the wiring should have worked. It did not work and I have made no wiring changes to the 4-way dumb or the 3-way dumb. I have not been able to figure out any ideas around why this would not work and the dated wiring and colors don’t help either. But I do have black taped wires which does somewhat help. Again I was not looking to rewire the dumb switches at all.

yes the ellipse is a cable entry and sorry the two blues on the left are coming out of the left ellipse only. I did check the voltage with an Amprobe and Fluke tester. I am tempted to try out a add-on switch at this point.

From the pictures above and the black taped wires (switched hot) is there anything obvious you see?

I am also considering converting this 4-way into a 3-way without the 3-way dumb illuminated switch.

Thank you!

#22

It’s still difficult to see in side your boxes, plus it looks like you have blue THHN or THWN conductors pulled through conduit making conductor identification difficult. Did you make a note of how the dimmer was connected before you removed it?

So you can use the old dimmer, the DV-603P, to understand the wiring. It’s really like the same as any three other switch. The black is connected to your constant hot source (LINE) and the two reds are the travelers. So once you label them, if that circuit was working properly before with the other two switches untouched, then you ought to be able to adjust to wire the Inovelli. One other thing you’ll need to know beyond those three conductors is which of the conductors in that box, probably a bundle, is the neutral.

The last piece of the puzzle is to know if the light i.e. the LINE is in the box with the dimmer or in the the far box with the other 3-way switch. I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t think you can use the Lutron with the LINE and LOAD in the same box, so I’m thinking that you may have LINE in one box and LOAD in another box.

I looked at your pictures, but didn’t see any of box C, which would be the far box . . . unless that’s what you are calling A. If A is the far box, not the one with the dimmer, I still can’t see in the box, but I do see a wire nut which might be a neutral bundle and the conductors to the light.

So you’ll have to evaluate what you have because I can’t see it. Let’s go with the LINE and LOAD in separate boxes scenario. We can adjust if you find otherwise. I see that the diagram you drew suggests a LINE and LOAD in the dimmer box, but I couldn’t find Lutron wiring for that so that would make it hard to identify the conductors from the Lutron.

Here is your diagram:

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So at the dimmer box, take constant hot (which was previously connected to the black on the Lutron and connect that to the LINE on the Inovelli. The two blues that you identified as the travelers go the the LOAD and TRAVELER terminals on the Inovelli. Pigtail a white to the neutral terminal.

That should be it, absent losing the illuminated switches. If you don’t have a non-illuminated 4-way, after tagging the wires, tie them together in pairs with one conductor from one 3-way to one conductor to the other 3-way. Not sure how you tell with all that blue THNN.

#23

Thanks @Bry Switch C (Dimmer and Source box) I had posted at the very top (long thread) - here it is again.

The first black from the bottom has 120v constant hot, no voltage on the other two black wires when off. Previously the Lutron had all 3 black wires pigtailed in a single wire nut - do you see any issues with these black wires? I will review your suggestions next. There is a neutral for Inovelli - Lutron did not need a neutral, that is the only difference I see in this source box.
For the Inovelli the black taped wire goes to load, blue goes to traveller, line from the above wire nut.

Switch C (Source Box)

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#24

@Bry here is the Lutron wiring picture I took before starting the Inovelli wiring, I see an orange nut with the 2 black wires. I am starting to think these black wires in the source box were split between two wire nuts one orange nut and another white wire nut (top right) - can you help me understand what I missed here - I think I incorrectly wired the hot line with the other black wires.

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#25

Ok, so bundle the the blacks that were previously bundled with the black from the Lutron. I’m not sure what all you have going on in that box, but if they were bundled before and everything was working correctly, put them back together. That is probably your LINE. Using a meter, test between the black bundle and the neutral for a constant 120V.

If the two blues were connected to the two reds on the Lutron, those are your travelers (LOAD and TRAVELER).

#26

Ok, so my previous post was before you posted your last set of pictures.

So this picture . . .

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. . . is the box with the Lutron before you disconnected it.

Give me a bit to look at it.

#27

This box is completely overloaded. Just feel that I should point that out. Not sure where you are located or under which code you are subject to, but generally speaking, there is a calculation that is made per conductor and device in a box and that calculation requires a box of a certain size. I can’t imagine that you’re even close to the proper capacity. For what it’s worth …

So as I mentioned before, you can use the Lutron connections to identify your wires. See my notes below. I’ve marked the LINE and the two travelers. Hopefully you can figure out where that 2nd red traveler was connected.

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#28

Thank you yes I understand the Lutron wires you have highlighted, I will verify this one more time - what about the the two other black wires in the box? bundle these 2 black wires in a seperate wire nut?

#29

I agree with Bry on the quantity of conductors, however at this point I wouldn’t worry about as the lighting loads are rather small. However if one of the line pass through’s went to a heavy loaded circuit it would not be too good.

Having said that, I have two questions:

  1. were you able to pair the dimmer with your hub.

  2. have you re-installed the lutron to make sure all is still working as original?

If you have done #2, you should be able to connect the exact wires (without neutral) to the Inovelli and have it work. It would need to be connected so you can change:

parameter 21 to 1
parameter 22 to 0

If that works then we can identify the neutral and add that to the dimmer (with neutral is the desired configuration if at all possible).

NOW I see something that is worrisome:
If this is the type of cable being used, the metal jacket does not qualify as a safety ground. There must be a conductor (green or bare) to bond (connect) the metal box to the safety ground. This should be of concern especially in the kitchen.
For now I would get the light working then go back and maybe the yellow is serving the function of safety ground.

With any luck:

  • Black = line (or at least power)
  • White = neutral
  • Yellow = safety ground.

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#30

Are you referring to the bundle with the white wire nut? If it was like that before, I would leave it alone. At least as you have described, it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with this switch leg. I suspect that you may have more than one circuit in this box. It may be being used a a junction box as well.

#31

@JohnRob yes Inovelli is connected to Home Assistant and works perfectly. I have set it to 85% brightness for the 6 LED cans, I did reverify the parameters, all that works. Both the dumbs don’t work.

I have not re-installed the Lutron, I am hoping to get the Inovelli working in the kitchen. I have some homework now from this feedback, I might re-install Lutron to reverify. I will update tomorrow on the progress I make. Thank you and appreciate all the help!

#32

I reinstalled the Lutron switch and the 4-way with Lutron works flawlessly. See picture.

Replaced the Lutron with the Inovelli Red similar wiring as above and no changes to Dumb switches wiring, still have the same problem. Inovelli can consistently control the LED lights fine, but the two dumb switches display random on/off behavior. Parameter 22 is set to Load Only and Parameter 21 Neutral.

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#33

Did you replace the lighted dumb switches?

#34

Tried a non-lighted 3-way dumb - no change in behavior, dumb switches operate random LED on/off. Same as lighted.

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#35

Hmmm… Do you happen to have another switch you can try this with? Quite possibly it’s a defective switch. However, I’m doubting that’s the case given it does work at the switch itself. But just a shot in the dark.

#36

It’s not a defective switch (non-lighted 3-way dumb), it’s from another working 3-way Inovelli I have in a different room. The Inovelli works fine from the switch and Home Assistant - it is unlikely the problem is in Inovelli? any parameter setting I should try?

I already tried different Parameter 22 settings.

#37

Going back to basics, I would:

  1. replace one of you LED lights with an incandescent (if you have one).
  2. Verify Parameter 22 = 1, not sure what that is on your hub. If its possible to “read” the parameters you should verify Parameter 22 = 1. There have been reports in the past that the parameter changes don’t always “take” on the first try.
  3. is the non-lighted switch still installed? If not it should be.

Since the 4-way and 3-way worked with the lutron, then they are OK. There is no need to troubleshoot these two switches (except changing to an unlighted switch. The Inovelli does not see any difference between a 3-way and a 4-way.

If you are still unsuccessful I would swap these inovelli with the one in the 3-way circuit you mentioned was working OK in your first post.

#38

One thing to possibly try. I’m not sure what you are using to set parameters 21 and 22. As you are aware, they should both be set to 1. If you are setting them through HA, try setting time at the switch instead. Change the parameters to something incorrect and then put them both back to 1. That have some reports of the settings not “sticking” when set via software.

https://support.inovelli.com/portal/api/kbArticles/407409000007752479/locale/en/attachments/1abnfa5822ce11f1e4dfe9a7306effa38a8cf/content?portalId=edbsn8bb12d5f5a97d693e61ce4ce8a23f8b0e323eac44a6c2794f893e912acf005df&inline=true

#39

I think @Eric_Inovelli is suggesting the possibility that the Inovelli switch you are trying to get working may be bad.

#40

yes I understood what Eric was alluding to, this is a new Inovelli Red switch I just received and so far it has worked fine except for the dumb switches.

I have tried the parameter 21 and 22 setting both from the switch config (12 and 13 + one tap) and Home Assistant, I had also read about setting to a different value etc. tried all that. I also reset the switch at one point. I am going to try the parameter reset once again.

Other options to try add-on and possibly switch the Inovelli. Thank you!