Auxiliary Switch | Project Golden Rule (LED Version)

[rohan]

@Eric_Inovelli

@Eric_Inovelli

If you really want two matching switches, we would encourage you to purchase multiple smart switches as they will be able to detect another smart switch and would only be an extra $7 (I know it adds up, but in the grand scheme of things, it sounds like most people wouldn’t mind it)

I’ve considered this approach before, but had a couple of reasons that make me hesitate:

1. Using Aux switches eliminates a zwave controller dependency. If the controller goes down the switches are still hardwired to each other and are able to communicate. With multiple switches, I would be uncomfortable with the risk of the controller going down and only the primary (load connected) switch working. Is there a way to wire the dimmers or switches together using the aux terminals to provide at least on/off and dimming if the controller goes down?

2. Association group limitations. I have a hallway in my house that has one set of lights controlled at 4 locations. And a second light controlled at 2 locations. It makes logical sense for those to be treated as a single load (both sets of lights come on together and match dimming). This works currently using associations because I have two dimmers and the rest are aux switches. If I swapped all of the aux switches to dimmers, I would have 6, which would exceed the limit of associations (5).

Curious if you have any suggestions on those.

[mamber]

@rohan

With multiple switches, I would be uncomfortable with the risk of the controller going down and only the primary (load connected) switch working

In this scenario the recommondation is to use Associations, not Scenes. Associations are direct communication between the associated devices and do not depend on the hub/controller

@rohan

I would have 6, which would exceed the limit of associations (5).

I agree this limit is a bit restrictive and could be an issue. Seems unexpectedly low to me. But I suspect this is a zwave limitation and not something Inovelli has any control over. I guess that is a case where Scenes on the hub would be the solution instead of Associations

[Eric_Inovelli]

@mamber

I know there are several of us who have ended up doing this while waiting. It mostly works, but there is at least one ‘fix’ that is needed to the firmware to keep the LED bars more in sync. I documented this back in May and I thought I remembered @EricM_Inovelli acknowleging it. But it hasn’t been fixed yet.

@mamber

What do you mean be that? I’ve had to manually configure them. Not seen anything about two smart switches detecting each other. Am I missing out on a secret feature?

@rohan

Curious if you have any suggestions on those.

Yeah, these are great points – let me try to shed some light (pun intended) on what’s going to be different with the new approach via 2x smart switches.

With our Z-Wave switches, our scope of work to the manufacturer (aka PRD) included the ability for smart switches to work together.

The manufacturer interpreted this as it can work together via Associations, whereas we meant that they would work together like a traditional 3-Way switch setup (ie: three wires).

As some of you may unfortunately remember… we were 6+ mo behind schedule on the initial switches and when we discovered this didn’t work as anticipated, it was around 3mo behind already and if we added this feature, the PCB design would have to be changed, adding additional time. We didn’t think people would want 2x smart switches hooked up to each other as with our Gen 1’s, everyone loved the cost savings of using dumb switches in a 3-Way.

So, we said, “ok, rather than redesigning everything, let’s roll with the Association technique”.

Well, more people than we thought use 2x smart switches together so we will be pushing the new manufacturer to include this in the Matter design while allowing any future Inovelli Z-Wave switches to do the same.

NET: Unfortunately our current Z-Wave switches have this limitation – however, moving forward the ZigBee/Matter switches will have what we’re asking for (multiple smart switches working together via hardwiring).

@rohan – hopefully this helps clarify things? Basically, you wouldn’t need Associations as the switches would be hardwired together similarly to how a normal 3-Way switch works.

@mamber

Also confused by that. If the new non-LED-Bar Aux switch is $18 doesn’t’ that make the “dual smart switch” alternative more like an extra $24? ($18 for the non-led aux versus $42 for the Smart Red Dimmer configured as an Aux)

Sorry, it was poorly worded. What I meant by this was the LED version aux switch would be $28.50 and the Matter switch would be $35 (yes, it would be more for the Z-Wave version), so it’s an extra $7 over and above the LED aux switch.

[BrenenP]

Disappointed that I’ll have to continue using my GE for the foreseeable future.

[rohan]

@Eric_Inovelli

Well, more people than we thought use 2x smart switches together so we will be pushing the new manufacturer to include this in the Matter design while allowing any future Inovelli Z-Wave switches to do the same.

NET: Unfortunately our current Z-Wave switches have this limitation – however, moving forward the ZigBee/Matter switches will have what we’re asking for (multiple smart switches working together via hardwiring).

@rohan – hopefully this helps clarify things? Basically, you wouldn’t need Associations as the switches would be hardwired together similarly to how a normal 3-Way switch works.

Thanks for sharing the details and the history @Eric_Inovelli. At this point I’ve got a house full of Z-Wave (mostly Inovelli stuff!) with no plans of switching to Zigbee/Thread/Matter.

If I’m understanding you correctly, the next version of the Z-Wave switches will support direct hardwired support? But to get that, I would need to replace both the current Red series switch/dimmer and the hardwired Aux switch?

And the alternative would be to use the current Red series, but with associations?

Any thoughts on the association group limitation of 5? Is that something that is a Z-Wave specific limitation or could it be increased in a firmware update?

[PJF]

Isn’t it possible to associate a slave switch to the master and then associate another slave switch to that slave?

[eric.dalquist]

@rohan

If I’m understanding you correctly, the next version of the Z-Wave switches will support direct hardwired support? But to get that, I would need to replace both the current Red series switch/dimmer and the hardwired Aux switch?

This is what I’m most interested in. I’ll happily get “full” smart switches for every switch if I can wire all my 3-way/4-way together on an aux wire and have them use that wire to communicate. I did several trials with association-group based linking and while it works and was reliable there was noticeable latency (0.5-2 seconds) for the main switch to respond to presses on the aux switches.

[Eric_Inovelli]

@rohan

Thanks for sharing the details and the history @Eric_Inovelli. At this point I’ve got a house full of Z-Wave (mostly Inovelli stuff!) with no plans of switching to Zigbee/Thread/Matter.

Definitely understand that one – I am in the same predicament lol.

@rohan

If I’m understanding you correctly, the next version of the Z-Wave switches will support direct hardwired support? But to get that, I would need to replace both the current Red series switch/dimmer and the hardwired Aux switch?

Yes, that is the goal. We would essentially take the same hardware that we’re currently developing and create a Z-Wave version of it.

Unfortunately, as it’s a hardware issue (where the hardwired smart switches do not work, but require associations) it does mean that they will need to be swapped out if you want the hardwired option

@rohan

And the alternative would be to use the current Red series, but with associations?

Correct. Depending on your hub (if it’s local), it’s pretty quick – I have this setup with Hubitat.

@rohan

Any thoughts on the association group limitation of 5? Is that something that is a Z-Wave specific limitation or could it be increased in a firmware update?

That’s a great question for @EricM_Inovelli – I can’t remember if this is a Z-Wave limitation or if we just didn’t have enough room on the switch to add more than 5 associations.

@PJF

Isn’t it possible to associate a slave switch to the master and then associate another slave switch to that slave?

Another great question for @EricM_Inovelli lol – I don’t believe this is possible, but Eric can confirm.

@eric.dalquist

I did several trials with association-group based linking and while it works and was reliable there was noticeable latency (0.5-2 seconds) for the main switch to respond to presses on the aux switches.

Yeah, I’ve noticed the same thing

[EricM_Inovelli]

@rohan

Any thoughts on the association group limitation of 5? Is that something that is a Z-Wave specific limitation or could it be increased in a firmware update?

No reason other than that there has to be a limit and it seemed 5 would satisfy our users at the time. The more associations you have the greater the possibility of a network issue while controlling other devices. We will probably bump that up to 10 for people that are doing more than 5 bulbs though.

@PJF

Isn’t it possible to associate a slave switch to the master and then associate another slave switch to that slave?

I would recommend you associate each slave to the master in this scenario.

[mamber]

@EricM_Inovelli

We will probably bump that up to 10 for people that are doing more than 5 bulbs though.

Is that limit in the driver (DTH) or in the firmware? If its in the driver, I don’t mind hacking my own personal copy until you release an official update

[jtronicus]

I am pretty sure it it a firmware limit. From what I have seen in the zwave specs, the theoretical limit is 255 devices. However, Im sure there are also technical (memory/storage) limitations because the device likely needs to store the routing tables for each associated device.

[rohan]

@Eric_Inovelli

Unfortunately, as it’s a hardware issue (where the hardwired smart switches do not work, but require associations) it does mean that they will need to be swapped out if you want the hardwired option

Got it. Sounds like a good option for the few areas where I absolutely need to be hardwired. Unless you can make Aux switches with multi tap and an LED bar .

@Eric_Inovelli

Correct. Depending on your hub (if it’s local), it’s pretty quick – I have this setup with Hubitat.

Yeah, I’m using Home Assistant with Z-WaveJS. It’s pretty quick, but not as quick as having a hardwired switch.

@EricM_Inovelli

We will probably bump that up to 10 for people that are doing more than 5 bulbs though.

Excellent. Hopefully this will make it in the next beta firmware.

[EricM_Inovelli]

Yep, as @jtronicus said, it is a firmware limitation.

[Eric_Inovelli]

Closing out this thread to replace it with the Non-LED design. I will open it back up if we decide to pursue this, but as of now, it’s too difficult with the tariffs in place to get it to a price point we want.

New project can be found here: Auxiliary Switch | Project Golden Rule (Non-LED Version)