Ok after re-reading this response again, I realize that after you told me I was wrong, you restated exactly what I said in different words. The thing that 8 taps of the config button does is disable local control using the paddles except for Z-wave bulbs. For those it does something different.
So I’m back to my same solution. Forget this silly mode that has a nonsense name and just physically disconnect the load side from the switch and physically tie it to the line side. Done. On/off/dim messages still go to my hub and work properly with my Zigbee bulbs. And I can use scene control to boot using the multi tap functionality.
Just because you mispoke doesn’t mean you are intentionally misleading people. In other words, I’m not saying you are lying, I’m just saying your statement isn’t true and I am trying to help you understand why it isn’t true. I don’t think you are being malicious, I’m just trying to help you.
Sorry if it came off that way.
It is actually best to either enable “Remote Protection” in the settings or not control the switch via SmartThings. As for how to get things working we have written up some great information that should help get you started:
Edit: I noticed that @Eric_Inovelli already mentioned the last article. Have you had a chance to give it a shot? Are you getting stuck somewhere that we might be able to help?
I have read through all this and if I had Z-wave bulbs, I’d be set. But I don’t (for the most part, except for the four I got as part of these kits along with the switches). So, let me ask one very simple yes/no question:
With Zigbee bulbs connected to the load output of the switch, is it possible to set up dimming so that up/down press triggers a bulb or group of bulbs to dim in response?
If the answer is yes, please direct me to the how. I believe the answer is no and that to get that functionality I need to have the bulbs hardwired to the line input (leaving the load side of the switch disconnected).
There must be a misunderstanding here. I am reading all of this and you are clearly implicating that the switch is not CAPABLE of doing what you want it to do, when it definitely is. I do it myself. I personally have many zigbee dimming color control lights that I operate on/off and dim via the red dimmer switch.
Start here:
Disable local control
Disable remote control
Now the switch does nothing and will not allow you to change via app, right? Ok good. We want constant line voltage (110-120V) to the bulb, and we don’t want anyone changing that.
Now depending on the type of bulb, there are multiple solutions for “smart” communication between the switch and the bulb.
Z-Wave - Download the Z-wave association tool and group the switch as master and the bulb(s) as slave in group 2, and a second association on group 4. Note that there is a 5-slave association limit.
Other - 2 options
2A) Use 3rd party software “ABC Controller” or equal that will translate press at the switch to an action at the bulb.
2B) Set a scene with the bulb at a specific level/color as desired and set up central scene commands with the switch. One up = one up scene, One down = one down scene. One scene per tap count up or down.
I believe you still think the switch needs to regulate voltage in some way, but the ONLY thing the switch will do is send it’s press (tap up) or held (tap down) or true held commands (see the button mapping, other thread) to the bulb if z-wave (quicker) or through the hub, then the hub will make the corresponding change at the smart bulb.
Note that even in an “off” state, the bulb has full 120V. The bulb itself is just off.
First, sorry for getting off on the wrong foot here with this – we by no means mean to be insulting you, just as, I’m assuming with your quotes above, you weren’t trying to insult us. It’s hard to tell the inflection of tone/voice via written words, so I think that’s where the communication breakdown occured.
Anyway, let’s start fresh. It sounds like this is what you’re after, correct:
I’m guessing what you want to do here is hold up on the paddle and your Zigbee bulbs will dim up in realtime and when you hold down on the paddle, they will dim down in realtime (or as close to realtime as they can since they are technically wireless).
If that’s my correct interpretation, to my knowledge I’m not sure it will work on SmartThings in that way. However, maybe @prjct92eh2 and/or @jody know of a way to do this.
There are a couple of threads discussing this for Hubitat (I know you’re on ST, but I at least wanted to show you that it is possible to do what you’re asking) but again, even on Hubitat, there will be a slight delay.
So, as a workaround as Eric and @kreene1987 have suggested, we’ve put together a couple other options for you for non-Z-Wave type bulbs as outlined in the SmartThings links above.
Hopefully that helps clear up some things for you and again, apologies for the misunderstanding – let’s just figure this out for you and/or try to work towards a solution.
For my own help, where can we be more clear about the limitations and/or implications of how switches work with bulbs? I wrote up a bunch of Knowledge Base articles, but maybe people don’t look there? Honest question – one of my goals has always been to try to be as clear as possible (sometimes to a fault), so I’m curious where we can improve.
Like, what does the LED display if there are 3 bulbs attached and one is at 33%, one at 45%, and one at 99%?
I would look for the “mean” of all bulbs, so (33+45+99)/3 = 59
How does z-wave switch know what the level is for a zigbee bulb or a wifi bulb? What if the bulbs aren’t even attached to this load, but it is just being used as a scene controller?
This I can see as being a challenge, but you should only be worried about functionality of z-wave to z-wave stuff that is associated.
For other (zigbee, wifi, etc) I would basically look for a second setLevel command (barLevel?) of the switch that would be in the DTH that I could essentially overwrite the LED “height” and intensity. I would basically send the command from the switch being tapped down (off) to set the bulb and the bar level to 0 (which would then go to “off” state of solid 10% intensity).
What happens if two of the bulbs are turned off but one of them is on? Does the LED bar stay on or go off?
Again, the mean of the 3 is 33% (assuming (0+0+99)/3 is the evaluated mean). It should be on, but representing a level of 33% as there is 33% of the possible light being utilized from that switch.
These are just a few examples that are involved in engineering this feature, but one that we are working on.
You’re using the Z-wave tool to slave Zigbee bulbs to the switches? If that’s the case, that’s where I’ve been confused…the way I read the links sent by the Inovelli gents seemed to indicate that non Z-wave bulbs would be stuck with just scene control and I couldn’t figure out how to use that to do dimming via up/down press and hold with local control disabled.
In your setup, do the LEDs on the switches change at all? Or are they static at whatever setting they’re configured to, never changing?
Thank you for the candor. IMHO, “disable internal relay” is confusing and misleading nomenclature. The terms in the ST DTH (disable local control) are still imperfect because of how you can directly pair the switch to Z-wave bulbs, but it’s better and less confusing/misleading for the uninitiated like me. At least for me, the words “disable internal relay” insinuate that line becomes hardwired to load internally in the switch, allowing it to still be wired “correctly” in the box but also maintaining full voltage to smart bulbs.
Pending @kreene1987 's response to my questions above about dimming, Zigbee, and ST, I might have to consider forgetting about dimming until I yank ST and replace it with something else (leaning towards HA right now). Or I just pull the switches and hardwire line to load like I’ve mentioned.
No, for zigbee devices I use Option 2A, which is ABC controller. This was originally supported by Inovelli and recommended by them. I’ve installed it in the IDE via smartapps, so it only works in the Classic ST app.
Maybe I’m confused, but this is exactly what it does. I must be missing something – it’s early in the morning lol!
When you turn on your switch and disable the relay, you are disabling the ability to turn the switch on/off and providing full power to the load at which it’s attached to (ie: smart bulbs).
Eric, I’ll add that this had be confused for a long time as well.
I believe “Disable Local Relay Control” and “Disable Remote Relay Control” or similar would have been more clear to me when setting up my first switch.
Thanks – in the Device Handler or something? Just trying to figure out where we can make that change as I agree and that should be a simple change to make!
If this is for me, then I’d say labeling in the “settings” portion of the app would do the trick. I believe this is controlled via DTH, but I’m no expert here. I rely on @EricM_Inovelli for the genius stuff.
Edit: Also, I don’t know what references you have to this at this point, but if instructions/code/etc. have references to that language, that might be a larger request than you are willing to accommodate. I totally understand that.
So you do have dimming capability via this method? Or no?
Am I correct in assuming that your LEDs on the switches in these cases don’t do anything?
If the mode engaged by 8 taps of the config button truly disabled the internal relay, then making changes to the switch’s on/off/dim status remotely wouldn’t change the load voltage at all. This is NOT the case. Take a look above in this post where I checked voltages with this mode engaged and making changes to the switch via ST.
Additionally, it is confusing that engaging this mode kills messages going to the hub (except maybe Z-wave association messages? I haven’t installed that yet so not sure there). As @kreene1987 mentioned, something like “disable local relay control” would make more sense. Also, I think calling it one thing in the ST DTH (disable local control) and something different elsewhere (disable internal relay) is confusing. To someone new to the system, those are very different words, so how do you decide which one is “right”?
Lol same for me, at least for the color. I still want the ability to dim via the switch though, hence this whole conversation. Although TBH the dimming function with ST is pretty crappy because of the latency…the first room I did doesn’t have the load side connected (long story, essentially the people that built this house wired many of the switches to outlets for lamps instead of having lights in the ceiling…even more odd considering this house is from the early 2000s, not 1960s…). For that room I didn’t even mess with this 8-tap thing (whatever you want to call it) so this didn’t come up. When I switch to HA at some point, I expect the dimming function to be better since it’ll all be local.
Got it – so it’s the local and remote vernacular that is throwing us off. Disable internal relay should be clarified to split out the remote and local portions as @kreene1987 suggested. I’ll try to clarify moving forward. Thank you.
Yeah, it will kill them if you enable, “disable remote relay control” – but if you only enable, “disable local relay control” commands will still be sent to the hub. In other words, tap up 8x disables local (at the switch) control, provides 120V to the load (if the switch was on prior) and you can still send remote commands to/from the switch.
Yeah, makes sense – I’ll have to wrestle @EricM_Inovelli to see which vernacular wins. I’m assuming everyone likes the DTH version better, so I’ll surrender and save us both from a wrestling match.
In my case at least (tapping the config button 8 times and getting a red led blink three times for confirmation), this is almost right except for the “commands will still be sent to the hub” part. Without installing any extra SmartApp, when this mode is on, pressing or holding the paddles doesn’t change anything at all in the switch’s “controls” page in the ST app. Maybe installing the Z-wave association thing and doing a bunch of additional configuration changes this, I’m not sure yet. I’m still not sure if I want to spend the time mucking with trying that or just pull the switches and hardwire load to line…then I can just leave this 8-tap mode off and use the switch like I had expected it would work.
This shouldn’t do that; what you see is right. The events (Central Scene events in Z-Wave terms, but interpreted as “button” events on SmartThings) are sent to the hub regardless of whether local or remote control is enabled or disabled and regardless of whether you have a specific SmartApp on your hub to “listen” for them. It’s just that when you disable local control, then taps (or holds and releases) on the paddle cause only these scene/button events to be sent instead of on/off and level events as well. (That is desirable; you don’t actually want to “dim” power going to smart bulb. There is currently a tradeoff where the LED bar on the switch can’t reflect the dim level and some challenges to making that work, but it looks like they’re exploring a few options.)
The second side of this, again, is whether you have something set up on the ST side to respond to these scene/button events. ABC is a popular app that can do what you want. There’s nothing the Inovelli DTH can really do — this is how SmartThings works. DTHs tell the hub how to talk to devices and generate events on the ST platform in response to reports from the device; it is the role of a SmartApp (any automation: ABC, webCoRE, Smart Lighting, etc.) to create automations based on these events. In your case, you want an automation that adjusts smart bulbs according to button events generated by the switch.
Unfortunately, most devices on ST have an additional shortcoming here: you have commands that can set them to a specific level and, in most cases, apps that can adjust the level up/down by some about, but no good way to emulate the behavior of a “real” dimmer where a bulb might slowly dim up/down (in response to the button event sent when the paddle is held) and stop (when the button event is sent on release of the paddle). Other platforms like Hubitat address this issue with “Start Level Change” and “Stop Level Change” commands, which I haven’t seen on any ST DTHs. ST further complicates things by involving the cloud for most apps and DTHs in general but custom apps (like ABC or webCoRE) and custom DTHs (like the Inovelli dimmer) in all cases, adding some delay (or total outage if ST is having one of their infamous cloud problems). Therefore, instead of trying to get that “dim while held” functionality that probably won’t work well in the first place as-is, you might want to try something else like “single tap up = set bulbs to 100%”, “double tap up = set bulbs to 75%” and whatnot. There may still be some delay, but at least the outcome is predictable.
Assuming you don’t have Z-Wave bulbs and aren’t using Z-Wave Association, then the above is pretty much what you want to do. This all involves controlling the bulbs and thinking of the switch/dimmer as just another way to control the bulbs (think of it like a button device/remote — just one that happens to be hard-wired — and ignore its switch and dimmer capabilities, which disabling remote control can help with if you don’t trust yourself to not accidentally send one of these commands from the hub/app). Almost all of my Inovelli switches/dimmers are set up to control Hue smart bulbs via the Hue Bridge, except I happen to be doing this on Hubitat where the “Start/Stop Level Change” command exists (but see alternative ideas above) and where execution is local so I don’t have to worry about cloud issues.
interesting that disabling physical load control also disables the switch and dim % being sent to the hub. (do I understand that right?) That really cripples you on SmartThings. If those states still got sent, you could easily use the mirror function in Smart Lighting to control a wifi or zigbee bulb. if the default SmartThings handler was used, it could even run locally this way (but then you lose a lot of the other features).
Yes, the dimmer won’t send “fake” switch (on/off) or level events back to the hub, only its actual states. With local control disabled, physical paddle taps on the switch won’t do that and so will only send the associated scene event. With remote control disabled, you can’t do it over Z-Wave (e.g., from the ST app or SmartApp) either, and in most cases you wouldn’t really want to, either, since the goal is to prevent changes like this on the dimmer.
I think newer Zooz dimmer firmware has a “smart bulb mode” where the dimmer will still try to track a level internally but not actually adjust the load. You could then use some automation to “mirror” that to a real bulb or other device. Unlike Inovelli, however, that’s the actual term I’ve seen them use for this. (I still prefer just using the scene/button events and creating the automation myself — I never updated my Zooz to the version that allowed this, as the one I had already scent scene events and allowed disabling local control — but I understand everyone has different preferences here.) But that sounds like what you want. I’m curious to see if Inovelli comes up with anything interesting here for people who do want that.
– in the Device Handler or something? Just trying to figure out where we can make that change as I agree and that should be a simple change to make!