LZW31-SN (Red Gen2) 3-way and 4-way (with dumb switches) lights shut off if dumb switches in certain position

[cwestmac]

Hey guys,

I have LZW31-SN switches installed throughout the house, and they all work fine (in single pole setups), but I am having real trouble with the one switch I have setup in a 3-way configuration, and the other that is in a 4-way configuration; both situations use dumb switches.

Here is the problem:

For the 4-way smart switch to work, BOTH dumb switches must be in the ON position (paddle UP). If one of the dumb switches is in the OFF position, or both are in the OFF position, and I turn on the switch via the smart switch, the lights turn off and then I hear a click, usually within 5 seconds, and the lights shut off. Note that I do not hear a click when I turn the smart switch on when one of the dumb switches is off. But if both dumb switches are on, and then I turn the smart switch on, I hear a click, and the lights stay on. Inovelli support tells me I should hear a click, so I am wondering why I am not hearing a click when one of the dumb switches is in the off position.

For the 3-way smart switch to work, the associated dumb switch must be in the OFF position (paddle down). Note this is completely reversed to the 4-way setup which required the dumb switches to be in the on position. Same issue as the 4-way – lights turn on for a few seconds (sometimes up to a minute or two) and then shut off with an audible click. I do NOT hear a click when I turn the light on from the smart switch when the dumb switch is in the ON position (paddle up, lights currently off), but when I turn the light on from the smart switch when the dumb switch is in the OFF position (paddle down, lights currently off), I hear a click coming from the smart switch, and the lights stay on.

From a programming standpoint, I have added both switches to Hubitat, and set Hubitat to 3-way toggle and Neutral (there is no 4 way option, but Inovelli support says to use the 3-way option for a 4-way). I also programmed both switches from the switch itself to be neutral and to work with additional dumb switches (I think that is the UP 12x and UP 13x parameter per the YT tutorial here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRIV-6yezrw). Hubitat has the latest device handler that works well for the other LZW31-SN I have deployed in my house (in a single pole setup).

From a wiring standpoint, I have attached pictures of my wiring setup. See below. Note that I had this done by a professional and if you have any questions, I’ll have to direct them to him as I do not have a lot of electrical knowledge. He said he followed the wiring diagram for the 3-way, but he mentioned that my specific setup was different from all the wiring diagrams for the 4-way, but I am not sure how they are different. Maybe the pictures will show it. He recommended having him come by to try reversing the traveler on the dumb switches to see if that helps, but I wanted to get feedback here first so we have a plan of action so we don’t waste any more time or money. Note that when he installed the smart switches, he did not (as far as I know) make any wiring tweaks to the dumb switches. He only put in the smart switches.

The 3-way has a load of approximately 60W (10 LED bulbs) and the 4-way has a load of approximately 36W (6 LED bulbs). Both 3-way and 4-way have a neutral at the smart switch location, but I believe there is no neutral in the dumb switch location.

I’m a new user so it will only let me put one image in a post. I will try to create separate posts here with pictures showing the complete wiring scheme. Stand by for the other pictures.

Eric H. Edit: Here are the pics

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4-way Smart Switch:

4-way Dumb Switch #1:

4-Way Dumb Switch #2:

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3-Way Smart Switch:

3-Way Dumb Switch:

[harjms]

@cwestmac - Try setting the switch through Hubitat to single pole neutral. Save. Then go back to 3 way toggle. Save preferences.

[Eric_Inovelli]

Sorry for these posts being out of order, I had to approve them for some reason.

Went back and edited the original post with additional pictures that were sent to me.

[Bry]

Try what @harjms posted first, then let’s address these one at a time.

Let’s do the 3-way first. Do you have pictures of of the original wired dumb switches?

You pictures should show both the switches and their connections as well as into the box so that we can see what wires are coming into it.

[cwestmac]

@Bry

@harjms

Hi @harjms, I did try that on both the 3-way and 4-way but the problem remains. On the 3-way, I need the dumb switch in the OFF position in order for the lights to stay on when I turn on the smart switch. On the 4-way, I need both dumb switches in the OFF position in order for the lights to stay on when I turn on the smart switch.

@bry, I asked Eric to edit my post to include all of my pictures, since I am a new user it didn’t let me post 5 pictures in one topic. Does this show enough about my wiring? I hope so as I don’t want to have to pull the switches out again.

[cwestmac]

The only thing I don’t think I’ve tried from a Hubitat standpoint is exclusion and adding the switch back, but I did try setting it to neutral/load, then back to 3-way toggle. I wouldn’t think I would need to exclude and re-add them as this is not a one-off problem, but instead a problem that affects both my 3-way and 4-way, but I am willing to try to rule it out.

[JohnRob]

I don’t think exclusion and repair would be fruitful.

I have some questions regarding the photos. Perhaps they are mismarked, however.

1. In the photo titled “4-Way Dumb Switch #1” the wiring is difficult to see but it does not look like a 4-way switch i’ve used.

2. The photo titled “4-Way Dumb Switch #2” is not a 4-way switch, it is a single pole switch.

Description of switches,

All switches have a green terminal that should be connected to the bare wire. Not counting the green wire:

A single pole switch has 2 wires
A 3-Way switch has 3 wires
A 4 way switch has 4 wires.

switch guide

So to help, we need a better understanding of your wiring. I understand you are uncomfortable with removing the switches again, however it is likely to be inevitable. But first:

As @Bry mentioned, do you recall what was changed from the original “dumb” installation?

Also, what was the original installation? Was it a 3-Way then a 4- way then another 3-Way? Was it originally working?

[Bry]

@cwestmac
Looking at the three way. To be honest, the picture doesn’t show much as I really need to see what is going into the box.

What configuration do you think you have? Do you think you have power going to the box with the smart switch first. Also, which box feeds the light(s)?

Judging by the picture of the smart switch alone, if you think you have power going to the box first, the switch wiring doesn’t look correct, maybe, depending on how you feed the light. I’m not going to elaborate yet because I don’t yet know if you have power to the box or a non-neutral configuration.

Reply back with what configuration you think you have for the three way.

Of course, if you are uncertain or uncomfortable with electrical wiring, you should consult with an electrician.

[cwestmac]

Hi @JohnRob,

The way this was setup before the introduction of the smart switches, is as follows:

• One 4-way setup and one 3-way setup, with all dumb switches
• The dumb switches shown in the pictures above have not changed between the old installation and new installation.
• The only changes made to the wiring were to introduce a smart switch into the 3-way setup and 4-way setup, at the only location that had a neutral wire. Meaning my electrician replaced one dumb switch in the 3-way setup with a smart switch, and one dumb switch in the 4-way setup with a smart switch, at the only location with a neutral wire.
• The only other change he made to the wiring was to drop a wire down where the smart switch was to go in the 4-way setup. So originally there was a dumb switch with 3 wires, and after the change there is a smart switch with 4 wires. If I need to confirm exactly what wire he dropped down, let me know and I can ask him.

I don’t know how to respond to your comment about the dumb switch #1 and dumb switch #2 not being 4-way switches. I can tell you that before this work was done, they were controlling a 4-way circuit. As in, before these changes were made, we had 3 dumb switches, each with 3 wires in them (per the pictures shown, except I don’t have a picture of the dumb switch that has since been replaced with a smart switch), that could all be turned on/off and control the same lights, which I thought was the definition of a 4-way circuit. It may be hard to see from the picture, but with dumb switch #1 (in the 4-way), there are 3 cables connected - two reds and one grey. With dumb switch #2, there are 3 cables connected - one red, one black and one grey.

[cwestmac]

Hi @bry,

I have a neutral configuration for the 3-way, according to my electrician. I’m not sure how to confirm if I have power going to that box first or which box feeds the lights, though. How would I confirm that? I see a black wire going to both the smart switch and dumb switch so not sure how to confirm which one is first.

I was hesitant to pull things out of the box too far because even though the breaker was off and the light switches weren’t working, I was still getting a small reading on my contactless sensor, which I understand is likely a false positive as it was not lighting up when touching the black wire. So I’m happy to pull things out further as long as I know exactly what you want to see so I don’t have to do this again. I can get my electrician back too but before I do that I was hoping to get feedback here. He’s really good but hasn’t worked with these particular smart switches before so I thought I’d consult the community first.

[JohnRob]

Perhaps some of the issue is you are describing 2 circuit in the same post.

Lets start with the “Smart with a dumb 3_way”

You have a LZW31_DN Red dimmer connected to a std dumb 3-Way. Which photos are for this particular installation?

John

[Bry]

@cwestmac Ok, we can go through this a step at a time for the three way. . .

A neutral configuration as described by your electrician means that you have a 2 wire Romex going to the box with the smart switch. This means that there is a 2-wire Romex that is constantly hot in that smart switch box.

Which of the two boxes feeds the light? In other words, if you do have a neutral situation, there will be another 2-wire Romex that goes to the light. Which box is that 2-wire in?

[cwestmac]

Hey John, the last two photos are for this particular installation. They are labeled “3-Way Smart Switch” and “3-Way Dumb Switch”.

[JohnRob]

OK lets assume the electrician wired it correct and it has a neutral.
In the past folks have had an issue with the parameters not “taking”.

Habitat has a Z-Wave tool that has helped in the past.

From here download and install the: Basic Z-Wave Tool

From your dimmer device page change the driver to “Basic Z-Wave Tool”

Now the device page will show only a few options;

In “Set Parameter” fill in:

21 (parameter Number)
1 (value to set the parameter to)
1 ( size of the value to set the parameter to)

and:

22
1
1

From the Get tool enter 22, the parameter value for 22 will show in the live log.

Try the dimmer and 3-way function. If OK return the driver to the inovelli driver.

John

[cwestmac]

How do I know if it took the parameter 21 and 22 settings? I entered them then clicked “Set Parameter” but then nothing happened.

I clicked “Get Parameter Report” both without a parameter set (to get a complete listing), as well as with 21 set, and nothing happened.

With that said, I think we’re still good here because if I check both the 3-way smart device and 4-way smart device, parameter 21 and 22 are already set to 1:

I’ll get back to you soon regarding Bry’s questions. Need to open up the switches again.

[cwestmac]

Hi @bry,

Let’s focus on the 3-way first as you mentioned, but for completeness, I’ve provided some information on both circuits after talking to my electrician.

For the 3-way, he says that the switch box where the smart switch is feeds the lights. This box also has the power. He thinks he can come onsite and fix this quickly, but still happy to hear your ideas if you have any.

For the 4-way, he says the switch box where the smart switch is gets power first before the other two switches. However, he says I have irregular wiring where it appears that both the switch box where the smart switch is, AND the dumb switch #2 (see pictures above), both feed the lights. Dumb switch #2 is at the end of the circuit, on the other side of the room. Dumb switch #1 is in the middle and he says that mainly acts as a pass through. He’d have to come onsite to investigate further as to why it appears that both boxes feed the same lights; this was just an observation he made when he was here a few weeks ago.

Let’s address the 3-way first as it’s probably the lower hanging fruit, but if you have any thoughts on either circuits, please let me know as my wife is getting annoyed that unless the light switches of the dumb lights are in a specific position, the lights shut off after a few seconds.

Thanks,

Chris

[cwestmac]

Edited the above post as I had some misinformation in there. If you already started replying, please read the edited version.

[Bry]

So since your electrician is going to come re-wire and/or confirm, here is the 3-way wiring. It’s pretty straightforward. This based on having the line and load in the same box, where you’ll have a 2-wire Romex with a constant hot, a 2-wire Romex to the light and a 3-wire Romex to the other switch.

@JohnRob can discuss the 4-way wiring . . .

[JohnRob]

I guess I’m up
Seriously 4-way switches are really simple, they look hard because the switches have no indication how they work inside.

Here is a typical 3-Way switch setup:

As shown the light is off because the dimmer outputs on the “load” terminal and the 3_way is connected to the “traveler” terminal.
If you change either the dimmer to output on the traveler or change the 3-way to connect to the load wire the light will go on.
Essentially either device will switch which wire they connect to (black or red).

So to make a 4-Way you simply put a different type of switch in between the existing that will reverse the black and red wires. Like so.

Showing individual 4-way positions:

I hope this helps.

John

[Bry]

So following up on @JohnRob’s description of how the 4-way works, since your electrician is going to inspect to insure your wiring is correct, the same questions apply. Which box has the constant power via a 2-wire Romex and which box feeds the light?