Idk but I just emailed our patent attorney lol
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No, what you would guess the market price would be if you (or someone else) took the open-source project and ran a batch in whatever the typical manufacturerâs quantities are? Given the Z-Wave market and current switch prices, could a relay/dimmer be added to something like this and still be priced competitively compared to the available dimmers/switches???
Patent litigator here. Generally speaking (see disclaimer below) you donât need to lose sleep tonight. Iâm sure your attorney will respond with the same info, but this link (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20200233390A1/en?oq=homeseer) is just a pending application, not an issued patent. In the US, a patent has to actually issue (i.e., be granted) before it can be asserted.
I am not your attorney and this is not legal advice for you to follow. Please consult with your own attorney (as it sounds like youâre doing) and donât believe some random person on the internet. Please also continue developing great products.
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I definitely would pay an extra $15-20 for a Z-Wave switch â I have a partial build-out and need more Z-Wave to strengthen the mesh before even considering adding ZigBee. I would imagine there are a lot of people who are in the process of a build-out and in a similar boat.
Your dimmers are the best looking and best featured Z-Wave switches on the market. Yes, I could get the Zooz switch delivered tomorrow, but everyone in my house would be upset that they werenât the nice-looking Inovelli dimmer switches. Itâs worth waiting for (and paying more for).
This is a great strategy, and a consistent look-and-feel between the Red and Blue series is a huge selling point for Inovelli. I would definitely consider building an additional mesh with Blue switches down the road, but it doesnât displace my need for Red. 
As to the price point issue I have, IMHO, good news and bad news. First the good news. I think that you should/could price the red dimmers (âRDâ) as being premium for 2 main reasons and a 3rd more minor one: 1 multi-tap and 2 the âfavoritesâ (aka âconfigâ) button with the 3rd and more minor one being the programmable LED strip.
I mark the LED strip as 3rd and it takes a bit more to program it and other switches have a way of showing the dim level, usually with a series of LEDs.
While the first 2 are the most important it is the favorites button that I think is the really killer (in a good way) feature. While I love turning my lights on and off from Alexa (and on rare occasions from your app) by far my biggest use of the RD is the favorites button. I have set each of them up to be just about the dimmest setting that will turn on the lights. I use that early in the morning when Iâm still 1/2 asleep, when we are watching TV at night, or if I get up at night and want some, but not a lot of light. Who else really has that? Lutron. While there is the Pico remote, that is battery operated, not wired, so you have to take it down and replace that batteries from time-to-time, which has to be a pain (and who wants to find out the batteries are dead in the middle of the night? - Imagine that commercial - :-)). But it only costs $19.95.
And, of course, it doesnât have multi-tap or the LED strip.
For the Lutron wired version there is the PD-5NE-WH but that costs a staggering $119 right now on Amazon:
And, of course, it doesnât have multi-tap or LED strip either.
So I think the marketing could be along the lines of âWhen it comes to smart switches, who wants it all? Raise your hands?â (and then maybe a table for print ads/web sites with the RD dimmer with features like multi-tap, the favorites button and LED strip, works with Alexa, Google, etc. with check marks in all of them for you and the hit and miss, or none at all, for your competitors. Or as I said above, a YouTube video of someone turning on the dim lights at night with your switch via the favorites button while someone else is blinded by the bright light or gets nothing because the batteries are dead in the unnamed (but obviously Pico remote)).
I also went with all Inovelli as you were/are the only ones I know about with the 1 gang fan+light. I looked for years and years to find those features and you were the only ones that not only had one, but had both in the RD and Fan+Light switch (plus the black series for the few on/off switches I have). I also loved you were a one stop solution for everything having bulbs and light strips too, but I guess that is moot now. (So Iâm glad I got mine while I could).
So here is the bad news - many people will buy the product based on price. Iâm old enough to remember the VCR wars between VHS and Sonyâs Betamax. Betamax was considered better, but cost more. VHS won. In the original game console wars there was the Atari and Mattelâs Intellivision. The Intellivision was clearly better, but cost more. The Atari won. But, that doesnât have to be the case. It all comes down to marketing the product correctly. After all, why do we have Mercedes and BMWs, and even more expensive Rolls, Bentley, Porsche, and Ferrari, when we also have Chevy, Ford, VW and Toyotas? Because they have successfully convinced a segment of the population that their features are worth it.
Now you may think that you find yourself in a Catch-22 where you canât make more money unless you have an extensive marketing campaign and you canât afford the market campaign because you donât have the money for it. But, unfortunately, Iâm afraid thatâs what you need to do. You already have a not only a better mouse trap, but the best mouse trap. What other switch has it all in multi-tap, favorites button and a LED strip (let alone an LED strip that is programmable)? Now you need to get the word out. What is your current marketing budget? Where are you marketing? I donât see your switches in Home Depot or Lowes. I donât see TV adds and nothing on YouTube except some from years ago. I just put âInovelliâ into Amazon and nothing came up. Obviously you have to have the supply for the demand you create, but this supply chain issue is short-term. Use this time to get your marketing act together. Because right now, there seems to be none.
I hope you find the financial backing to properly promote your products and the brains to design a successful campaign.
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Hmmm⌠that $70 price tag is actually a pretty good deal tbh.
Typical Minimum Order Quantities are anywhere from 2k to 5k (but even then, they will want to see what your long term forecast is and if it isnât 50k+ units, they tend to blow you off).
So, if I had to take a wild shot in the dark, I would say this is how much it would cost to the end consumer:
Letâs assume we sell 50k units (low, but this is a specialized product) at an MSRP of $70.
Product Costs
- Manufacturerâs Cost = Likely $25/unit
- Tooling = $40k => $0.80/unit
- UL/FCC/IC = $50k => $1.00/unit
- Z-Wave/ZigBee Cert = $5k => $0.10/unit
- Firmware Development = $10k => $0.20/unit
- Total Product Costs = $27.10
Shipping/Landing Costs
- Freight = $2.00/unit
- 25% Tariff = $6.25/unit (25% of Manufacturerâs Cost)
- Customs Fees = $0.20/unit
- Total Shipping/Landing Costs = $8.45/unit
Overhead Costs
NOTE: Some of these will vary, but Iâll put worst case as a scenario
- Shipping to Customer = $4.00/unit
- Payment Processing Fees (Non-Amazon) = 3% of MSRP => $2.10/unit
- Payment Processing Fees (Amazon) = 15% of MSRP => $10.50/unit
Total Costs
- Product Costs = $27.10/unit
- Shipping/Landing Costs = $8.45/unit
- Overhead Costs = $6.10 - $14.50 depending on platform
- Total Break-Even Costs* = $41.70 - $50.10 depending on platform
Asterisked bc this doesnât include covering normal business overhead (ie: rent, salaries, etc)
Assuming an MSRP of $70, the margins would be around 36%, which is acceptable. Not the best, but acceptable.
The only thing Iâm not 100% certain on is the manufacturer costs â it may be a bit low, but even if you bumped it up to $30/unit, I think the MSRP would only go up to $75-80.
Hope that helps?
Appreciate it, thank you! The one time my attorney has an out of office auto-responder is when I need him lol.
Generally speaking, is your interpretation of this part:
That the application was initially rejected, but then appealed and opened back up for re-examination?
Again, I will check with my attorney, but while heâs on the beaches of Hawaii or wherever until next week, my mind is of course racing lol.
Yeah, youâre right, there are a ton of them that email in and it actually makes me feel terrible. I canât imagine having your house specâd only to find the switches you want are on backorder w/no ETA.
Thanks, we appreciate the kind words!
Iâve come to really love this feature too. In fact, I really donât even have multi-taps anymore â Iâve changed all switches to instant-on and use the favorites button for scene control. It really grew on me.
Well now youâve got my creative juices flowing as I love a good marketing discussion.
I think you hit on it later, but Iâll address it now â we have to be extremely scrappy when it comes to marketing as weâre in that catch-22 you reference, âneed money for marketing, but to get money, we need products, but to get products we need marketingâ.
This presents the greatest opportunity for any investor(s) that come in and theyâve all said the same thing, âhey, whatâs your Google Ad Spend?â or, âwhatâs your FB/YT budget?â. The answer⌠close to zero.
Their face always goes from a confused look to a, âholy expletiveâ look. Like, âholy crap, you guys have these sales, this following, etc and no ad spend? Imagine what we could do with a little bit of ad spend?!â
Anyway, our strategy has been to connect with people during their information discovery phase. Places like Reddit, ST Community, Hubitat Community, etc. Places where the big dogs canât get into bc of all the red tape from their legal team (trust me, Iâve been there at Kellogg â canât say anything publicly w/out running it through an entire floor of lawyers). So, weâre out there connecting with people, understanding what they want, bringing them to the community where they have as much influence as us in product design, features, etc and we truly build things together.
So, while the larger companies have the TV spots, the (did you say print ads lol? jk, I used to work for a newspaper company where I sold print ads), the YT videos, etc â and they definitely work to spark interest (and I wish we had the budget as well), I truly believe that smart home products are not impulse buys, but rather they are researched heavily.
In my best case scenario, weâd have YT videos, FB ads, etc that would spark attention, but then weâd also have the areas where the decision making is truly done and people could see the genuineness of our company. In other words, when their interest is sparked, they would then go research us and see 1000âs of people who all have positive things to say that isnât influenced by corporate.
You are speaking my language brotha lol. As dorky as it is, this is what drives me and what Iâve always been passionate about. The psychology behind marketing â why do people buy what they buy? How is Rolex out there with record high prices, while Iâm over here content with my Garmin?
I guess being the little guy has you thinking about these things constantly too. Weâre never going to win the price war, weâre always going to be outspent, so we have to build a brand that people love and are willing to pay a premium for. How do you do that? To me, itâs by offering not only the best product, but also best overall experience.
Easier said than done, but this is where the strategy of building products together comes into play. I canât tell you how many people have said this is the stupidest idea Iâve ever come up with (your competitors will copy you â they have⌠who cares? They canât copy the brand nor the experience), but I truly believe deep down that by building the products together keeps that product up to date (ie: always improving based on feedback), it exposes any weaknesses in the product so it can be fixed and/or improved on, and the best part is that it gives people a sense of pride in contributing to something bigger than themselves. That feeling then translates into people talking about it on Reddit, FB, Communities, etc â this is all organic comments and not, âpaid reviewsâ, which then gives new people confidence in the brand.
This is harder to address as many of these are difficult to do without money, but hopefully the above paragraph outlines the marketing strategy a bit better and shows what goes on âunder the tentâ and what weâve been working on over the last 5+ years.
HD/Lowes = very difficult to get into w/out setting aside $500k-$1M to pay for whatâs called, âshopper marketingâ (this is where I started at Kellogg) where companies need to pay for things such as: end-cap displays, coupons/trade, possible co-branding, etc. In other words, they donât want to pick up your brand only for it to tank on their shelves and want you to have a budget for marketing.
We are exploring an option of white-labeling for a major brand to let them deal with B&M stores, but of course, there are complexities there on margins, as well as cannibalization of our own product line.
Regarding Amazon, yes, with no inventory, nothing would show up. However, part of our overall strategy has been to transition people away from Amazon and to our website (offering lower prices, rewards program, etc). We do pay for ads on Amazon when weâre in stock though as I know many people love Prime.
The overarching theme here though is that people will find our products if theyâve done their research (which again, is the spot we target). Point being I donât think smart home tech is an impulse purchase (ie: they donât walk into Lowes and decide to buy a smart switch on a whim â maybe in the future, but not right now) and so rather than focusing heavily on getting into Lowes/HD, we are focusing our efforts making sure weâre winning where the customer is making their purchasing decision and then fostering a positive experience in our community.
I do agree with you though, the time will come where we need the big marketing budgets and Iâm hoping after we land a deal we agree with from an investment side, we can start really turning on the marketing!
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Thank you for your very detailed response. My main thrust (which I sense you got) was that I think you have a uniquely wonderful product in the red dimmer and could probably bump up the price a bit if you can get the âaverageâ consumer to realize the difference. I see Lutron Casetaâs at HD and Lowes, along with wi-fi ones who are even at Costco. So while installing a switch is much more advanced than screwing in a light bulb it does seem there is a pretty big market out there for these products.
I know Hubitat has some video blogs they post on YouTube along with some âhow toâ videos. (I have their C7 hub). There were also a bunch of great reviews for the RD a year or more ago from people like the DYI Guy (who I think has quit making new videos of any kind). So, maybe it would be affordable for you to make some of your own videos with a âhow toâ even if done before so they get a new date stamp and will therefore get more views.
From being here and the Hubitat board it seems you have pretty close relationship with them. Maybe team up to do some YouTube videos - like setting up an association or doing multi taps.
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Great. Iâm on YouTube all the time and look at a lot of Smart Home videos. I donât know why they havenât come up.
But Iâm very glad they are there!
Very informative! I donât think that thereâs a home market for 50K units of something like this just yet. I ran into the open-source project on the HA forum a few days ago, and was just wondering if running a small batch for enthusiasts made any financial senseâŚ
Honestly, Iâd be totally willing to pay that right now 
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Weâve so far opted out of this as weâre talking like $55-60 MSRP for switches and that is IMO ridiculous.
Honestly, given the inflation on literally everything with a chip in the last 24 months, $60 MSRP only seems ridiculous when you remember what we were able to buy them for before the world ended. Seeing shipping dates in '23 based on the assumption component cost will come back down is not super comforting.
But Iâm just a whiny customer willing to pay double MSRP for a bunch of stuff right now >.>
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Iâm the same, heh. Waiting until 2023 is the real ridiculous part. I can pay a little more and by 2023 I will have long forgotten how much I paid but will have been enjoying the switches for many months!
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Any news from your manufacturer if a small quantity of Z-Wave switches can be done in 2022 (even if it comes at a hefty price premium)? From the small sample size on the forums here, it looks like we are willing to pay for it! You can even take our money in advance
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Another customer here happy to pay $70/switch for Zwave!
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Same here! I just installed my first two Red Series dimmer switches, and canât wait to convert the rest of the house!
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@Courtney_Inovelli Did we end up finding an ETA if we start paying more?
Red Series Dimmer Switch 10PK - LZW31-SN-10
OUT OF STOCK
ETA In-Stock Date: Unknown
Red Series On/Off Switch 10PK - LZW30-SN-10
OUT OF STOCK
ETA In-Stock Date: Unknown
I just need these 2 10 packs to finish my house. Wife and kids are getting tired of pairing the 2 bare wires to turn on lights (bunch of wimps IMO)
I have an extra kidney if you want to make an exchange⌠Slightly used, open box.
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Haha! Funny thing isâŚmy kidneys are actually a bunch of bums and I had a kidney transplant in 2018! Iâve currently got 3 of 'em inside me (two bad, one good)âŚbut Iâll take a 4th!
Still no ETA on new stuff. The manufacturer is all over the place. We email them and they respond claiming âoh yes we already responded to this lets move forwardâ and then 3 months go by without a word from them.
Are you looking for 10 dimmers and 10 on/off? I can try to find those refurbished but I am not sure we have that many. At least not on/offs.
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Oh I will take as many on/off open box you have. If you have one being used as a door stop for the past year Iâd take it. Really need 15, but the 1 year old canât reach those switches so I have some time.