Switched outlet showing 30v when off, dim light on plugged in LED

Switches Wiring Discussion
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#1

Looking for any ideas here, still actively troubleshooting this issue.

I have a circuit with a switch and 3 outlets. With a standard switch I am getting 120v on, 0v off as expected. Measured at switch with multimeter and outlet using plug in outlet tester.

Install a Red On\Off switch and I measure 120v on at outlet and 30v when off at the outlet. At the switch, I am measuring 0v when off (load to ground, load to neutral, neutral to ground - all 0v).

I have heard that the plug in testers can read 30v due to very low amp bleed onto the lines, but this is enough current to dimly light a couple of strings of outdoor led lights. If it is bleed, I wouldn’t expect enough current to light up the lights. LED’s do not light up with a traditional switch.

I have tried two different red switches, both with the same results.

Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? Any other tests to try?

Thanks for any guidance you can offer.

Edit: Adding details to make it easier for anyone new to the thread. These are the ultimately relevant details. Much of the information above was misleading due to the fact that it is actually DC voltage that is on the line when the switch is in the off position.

Root issue: My switch is passing 50v DC onto the line when in the off position.

My confusion throughout stemmed from the fact that I was measuring DC using the AC setting on my meter (I had no idea would actually work). Turns out that my non-RMS meter will read DC voltage on the AC setting, but only in one direction. Unlike AC, if the polarity is reversed DC gives a reading of 0 so I would see inconsistent readings depending on how I was hooking up the leads.

Some key points to clarify based on some comments on the thread:

  • This is a 2nd Gen Red SWITCH (not dimmer) - LZW30-SN
  • This is in a single pole configuration (not a 3-way configuration)
  • Pulling the air gap does resolve the issue, as does shutting down the circuit at the breaker
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LZW30-SN Wiring Help. Have Traveler wire but it's not a 3-way
#2

Try an incandescent bulb in the lamp. The on/off switches are auto sensing so the load may not be making the sensing correct.

#3

You need a bypass. I have a thread somewhere in my post history with the same concern that was resolved with the aeotec bypass. In my opinion, the switches should include a built in current sink, but they don’t.

#4

Thank you both for the pointers. @fatherdoctor, I found the thread you were referring and have ordered a bypass to test. The thread also mentions that the switch may behave differently in 3-way mode so I am going to check that out as well. I’ll report back with findings.

#5

I’d like to see something technical from Inovelli about this because the switch uses a relay so it should be capable of fully turning the power on and off.

A bypass should only be necessary on non-neutral dimmer switch installations.

#6

Just speaking out loud here . . .

Strange. First of all I would test using the multimeter at both ends.

When the Inovelli is off, you have 0 VAC at the Inovelli Load but 30 VAC at the receptacle. So on the same conductor that is maybe 30 feet apart, there is a 30 V delta measuring at both ends. So if the switch is leaking, why isn’t there voltage at the load? Even if somehow the voltage was emanating at the receptacle, #14 or #12 wire over a short run doesn’t have anywhere near enough resistance to bleed off 30 V.

This makes me wonder if you are seeing induced voltage. Are the receptacles split? If they are then there is a constant hot conductor running along with the switched lead. Unless you have a low-inmpedance meter (which you probably don’t), then there isn’t any real way to tell if what you are measuring is true or ghost (induced) voltage.

There is obviously some potential there or the LEDs wouldn’t light. Ghost voltage can also be induced by bad grounds, so I’d inspect the ground connections at the switch and the receptacles.

Also, post back with a voltage reading from the receptacle using the same multimeter that you used to get 0 VAC at the Inovelli’s load terminal.

I have a string of LED lights plugged into a receptacle controlled by a LZW30-SN, and mine turn off fully.

#7

I had something similar happen. I ended up dropping in the aeotec bypass in and it ended up working out.

#8

I’ve got the same thing happening with a 50W LED flood light, not 50W equivalent, 50W actual. The light goes off if I pull the air gap so it is definitely the switch. The OP could check the same way.

As I posted, it’s a relay so it really shouldn’t be leaking that much current.

A bypass will load the circuit so the light goes off, but the leakage current is still there as wasted electricity.

#9

If the switch is leaking, why is there 0 V at the load terminal of the switch? (Referring to the OP’s)

#10

Thanks everyone for the ongoing conversation on this issue. You can see why I posted, something isn’t adding up. I am going to do some more testing tomorrow including the measure at the switch and outlet. The outlets aren’t split so there should not be a long run with a powered wire side by side. If I can’t make progress, I am going to just feed from the switch to an external run and outlet just to see if it is an issue in the wall or existing outlets or at the switch. I’ll post back findings when I have more details.

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#11

Pull the air gap. If the switch is causing it then the light will go off.

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#12

My switch is leaking power, 100% confirmed.

But, there is no point harping on this any further with the OP readings because it’s not possible to read 0V on one end of the wire and 30V on the other end of the same wire when considering the application.

#13

Just for the data point - the lights do go out completely when I pull the air gap. Regarding the reading, I suspect the variance from end to end has more to do with two different meters. On the switch side I am using a multi-meter and on the plug side I am using a plug in meter, which I have read tends to run on the very sensitive side. I need to do an apples to apples comparison to get some of the answers that will make more sense. The plugs are all on the eves of my house, so I am just waiting for the weekend to pull the plug out of the box and check it out with the multi-meter.

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#14

OK, I discovered something today that doesn’t make sense to me, but it does explain some of what I have been seeing.

New information (both scenarios have the switch off):

  • Switch off: Measuring ground to load = 0 volts at the switch and at the plug (see next point…)
  • Switch off: If I measure with the polarity switched on the meter (black to load, red to ground) the meter reads 60 volts.

So, not sure why I only get a reading with the circuit off when the leads are backward. When the switch is on I get a reading either way I connect (red to load, black to ground or red to ground, black to load).

My guess is that I have a switch that is not shutting down the circuit, but is there anything else that could be causing this? Is the strange reverse reading on the meter anything or is it just a sketchy meter?

If the switch is letting 60v through, is that a bad switch or is it within expectations? Any parameters that may lead to a change in the switch behavior?

Thanks for all of the thoughts so far. I appreciate the help.

#15

For all intents and purposes, AC does not have polarity, so it doesn’t matter which probe is on which terminal. You can reverse the probes and for real voltage, get the same reading. Test a live receptacle using the hot and neutral slots and then reverse the probes. You’ll get 120 VAC both ways. There likely isn’t anything wrong with your meter is that test indicates the same voltage both ways.

It is not uncommon to find phantom voltage on non-energized conductors on 3-ways. This is true for both smart switches and dumb switches. I’ve seen as much as 85 volts on some. Unless you have a wiring fault, this is phantom voltage. Unless you are using a low impedance multimeter, which most don’t have, there is no way to tell if this is real voltage or not. So more than likely, what you are seeing is normal when testing with a meter that most use.

Of course, if you suspect a wiring fault, then you should consult with a licensed electrician. As I mentioned previously, bad grounds, even at the bus bar, can induce this voltage.

Google “phantom voltage on 3-way” . . you’ll find a ton of information.

#16

Root issue: My switch is passing 50v DC onto the line when in the off position.

My confusion throughout stemmed from the fact that I was measuring DC using the AC setting on my meter (I had no idea would actually work). Turns out that my non-RMS meter will read DC voltage on the AC setting, but only in one direction. Unlike AC, if the polarity is reversed DC gives a reading of 0 so I would see inconsistent readings depending on how I was hooking up the leads.

Some key points to clarify based on some comments on the thread:

  • This is a 2nd Gen Red SWITCH (not dimmer) - LZW30-SN
  • This is in a single pole configuration (not a 3-way configuration)
  • Pulling the air gap does resolve the issue, as does shutting down the circuit at the breaker
#17

There seems to be something really odd going on with these switches. They are not non-neutral capable which means they should not be using the load to complete the circuit for internal power which means they should not have to leak current to power themselves. So, why do they leak so much current???

I could understand it with a dimmer, especially in a non-neutral application. But, not with a switch that has a relay, or an open contact with an air gap, switching the load.

#19

Hey all – I’ve passed this onto the manufacturer to get an official answer.

Being that I have zero electrical background, would someone be able to summarize this for me so I can give a simplified version to the manufacturer? Keep in mind that there’s also a language barrier that needs to be translated.

From what I’m reading here, it seems like there is, “leakage” coming from the On/Off switch when it’s in the off position, which as @PJF pointed out, doesn’t make sense as it’s a neutral required switch.

What I’m confused about (again, my electrical is that of a 1st grader) is the following:

Just to clarify here – it’s not 30V as the title of the post shows, but 60V?

Also, what does the outlet show when you test in AC?

EDIT: More questions

Ok, thinking through this more – thanks for bearing with me on this.

Questions:

  • If there is energy being wasted (ie: 60V passed on), how is it that some lightbulbs turn off?
  • I’m assuming this is the root cause as to why some low-voltage lighting remains on, correct?

I think it just boils down to my fundamental understanding (or lack thereof) of how bulbs work. Why do some stay on, while others can shut off completely if 60V is passed on.

Thanks again guys, it’s semi-embarrassing to not understand this stuff. I can talk to you about the 4P’s of marketing if you want in exchange?

#20

** NOT AN ELECTRICAL** but engineer nonetheless.

I believe what they are saying is that this SWITCH should completely detatch the load from receiving any power because the switch can run off of the energy being routed from the line to the neutral (which is required). On the dimmer, because neutral is not required, it “bleeds” power from the line to load, but on the switch, it (in theory) should be capable of physically removing the load from the line to neutral power. It does not seem like this is happening even though the switch is “clicking”.

Essentially they think (I don’t have one) that somehow the switch is still allowing current from the line into the load terminal when the switch is off, which should be impossible if the switch is operating under the same principles as a true switch (connects or disconnects line/load).

#21

Honestly, I wouldn’t get too hung up on those voltage measurements. The switch isn’t passing 30VDC. I’m pretty sure that is the result of some component that is connected between the line and load terminals of the switch and the light that is connected.

I tested a switch with a resistive load and saw almost no leakage and it wasn’t DC, which is pointing to the DC being caused by the connected load.

The switch uses a relay. A relay is a contact that is closed or open. If the relay contact is open then there should be no connection between the line and load terminals inside the switch.

So, the question to ask is if there is a component or circuit connected between the line and load inside the switch. If so, what is it and how much current would it cause to leak from the line to the load.

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