That’s correct @epow! I think your analogy is spot on. As you said, Matter is a layer above the communication protocol. Think of it like the API level of instructions. Matter can work over Wifi or Zigbee too. For example Hue uses Zigbee yet they’re already beta testing Matter support. In this case, Matter is “enabled” at the Hue hub.
Though what I still don’t understand is what do the individual devices need to enable Matter support. For example, assume you’re using Home Assistant. HA will roll out Matter support soon. Does that mean your Blue switches on Zigbee would automatically be Matter enabled? I think something must be done on the device level firmware to enable Matter too?
Here’s where I think ppl are mistaken- the only Hue product that currently speaks Matter is the hub. It’s still pure Zigbee between hub and routers/end points. The hub is essentially running a translation service so that other Matter-enabled products can interact with the devices on the Hue Zigbee network. I’m 95% sure you can’t run Matter over Zigbee…
Both Zigbee and Thread are based on IEEE 802.15.4, which I think is layer 1 and 2. This is why some Zigbee radios should be firmware updatable to Thread.
Based on information here, I think Matter will run natively on Thread and WiFi. A bridge will be needed to translate Matter to Zigbee or Z-Wave.
@EricM_Inovelli is digging more into this from a technological side as quite frankly I don’t understand a word you guys are saying lol. I’m sorry.
But here’s what I’m thinking from a strategy side - spitballing here, so bear with me.
What if we continued to lead with Zigbee (as we’re seeing the same thing as @epow with Hue - seems like a lot of these companies are doing the same thing) and provided alternate firmware files to start.
In other words, rather than coming out with 3 separate SKU’s of the same switch (4 if you count Z-Wave), we start by releasing more Blue Series and at the same time (or slightly after) we provide firmware files for those that want Matter or Thread.
This means we’ll have to do everything with the MG24 (or something similar that supports all of the above) but that was the plan anyway.
Another reason I like this is because I’m just not sure of the market demand for Thread right now if I’m being candid. I know there is interest, but at what scale is that interest? Especially with Matter being released and the major companies who use Thread (Apple, Nest/Google) are moving to Matter.
This was kind of the point I was trying to make earlier - I don’t quite understand what the benefit of a Thread only switch is. I’m likely missing something though and I’m hoping it’ll click.
In my POV, I see the demand for Zigbee in the short term, heck maybe in the next 2-3 years. Matter is still new and I don’t think many of the hubs are polished yet to justify us launching a Matter device (I could be wrong here, I haven’t really tested anything), but what I do see is the opportunity to start testing Thread and Matter via firmware updates for those who are interested.
@Eric_Inovelli, all those companies (Apple, Google, Amazon…) are moving to Matter using Thread as the communication protocol. I think you’re confusing Matter as a communication protocol. You cannot have Matter by itself. It needs a protocol to communicate. Ignoring the workarounds of hubs (like Hue), we can safely say that a switch would either need Thread or WiFi to be Matter compatible. So when you say “move to Matter”, you’re essentially saying moving from Zigbee to Thread and supporting Matter.
Apple already uses Thread from the start so there’s no hardware changes for them. Most if not all of the recent Google and Amazon hubs all support Thread. Many companies that build sensors, switches, and other devices are moving to Thread and phasing out Zigbee, Bluetooth, and WiFi.
At this point, Thread is the future. The only benefit for launching a new product with Zigbee would be backwards compatibility for users that don’t have hubs/dongles that support Thread.
I like the idea of using MG24 so that customers can select which protocol they want. Though which protocol would you ship with? If you ship with Zigbee and someone has a non Zigbee hub (Apple hubs) how will they be able to update OTA to Thread if they cannot pair the device in the first place?
Well, that’s the plan, at least. I’m old enough to have seen plenty of super hyped up “it’s the future!” technologies come and then fizzle out, and I’m not even all that old!
Ahhh, this is the piece of the puzzle I didn’t understand – you’re right, I thought these were three separate protocols/languages. This makes way more sense now, thank you.
Yes, this is a dilemma. Now that I’m understanding the Thread/Matter relationship more, I think it would make sense to do the same (phase Zigbee out and use Thread/Matter). It’s also much easier to manage 3 SKU’s knowing that I’d have to phase out one (Zigbee) rather than 4 SKU’s where I’d have to phase out 2 like I thought (Zigbee/Thread).
Now the question is… will Matter support all the advanced features Zigbee does? Will the hub support all the advanced features? What is the timeframe there if they don’t?
I would imagine the answer to that question is no, the major hubs do not support all the major features, just given the track record of what we’ve dealt with thus far with Alexa and Zigbee and my anecdotal experience with Google Home being super basic.
My fear is that everyone is so excited about Matter, but when they get a Matter switch, none of the bells and whistles will work and we’re stuck with trying to compete on price with all the other Matter switches and quite frankly, we just aren’t able to compete. The bells and whistles are what separates us from the pack (and a little bit of aesthetics).
What about price discrimination? Sell a unit that that is thread/matter ONLY out of box with understanding that you cannot do all the cool config options that you can do with zigbee settings. This model should “just work” for the basics when pairing it with Matter capable Homepod, Apple Tv, or Amazon echo device. NO HUBS. Price can bend lower to be more competitive maybe? Warranty/support voided if people try to flash the zigbee firmware in order to get a cheaper switch.
Higher price “enthusiast” switch that is zigbee and has all the config options. You can optionally flash to thread/matter for forward compatibility with understanding that cool features like light bar config will go away. This switch gets all firmware updates for config options advanced functionality. This switch gets all the hub documentation necessary to configure all of its functionality.
Some articles from last year about how Eve is talking about the transition:
An advantage Eve has with their products is that they have their own App for configuring advanced settings and updating firmware. But they also have to grapple with the transition to Matter in that it currently does not support all configuration so if you update to Matter you lose that functionality until the Matter spec decides to incorporate it.
That’s a good question. You can find the Matter 1.0 spec here. You can check which features are currently supported. Their plan is to update the spec every 6 months.
I read it somewhere and my brain mostly works but I recall reading that the Matter cluster spec is heavily based on the Zigbee spec meaning that most of the features we have with Zigbee should be there with Matter. I did a very quick browse of the Matter clusters and they look very much like all the bits that exist in the current Zigbee clusters.
There’s a really good answer on Stack Overflow that helps to show the bigger picture. First thing to know is the most networking kind of, mostly follows the OSI 7 layer model. In the article it talks about HTTP which is the protocol that moves web pages around and where it fits in the 7 layer model.
Not all protocols use all 7 layers. Some skip layers, but they are mostly there for lots of protocols out there.
When someone says Zigbee they are referring to all 7 layers with just that one word. It just happens that Zigbee is encompasses other standards… IEEE 802.15.4 which is the lower two(ish) layers and the cluster specs which is the upper most layer (layer 7).
With Thread/Matter all that has happened is they split out the lower layers from the upper layers. The lower layers is Thread. Again layers 1-2(ish). And Matter layers 4 up. And, Matter does not have to use Thread. It can run over other lower layers, such as WiFi. Oh yah, Thread just happen to use the same IEEE 802.15.4 layers 1 and 2 as Zigbee.
From an Inovelli perspective Matter will probably only ever run over Thread. Of course there may be some new wild market opportunity and you decidye to run Matter over something else, but I have not seen anyone talking about those ideas (they could come).
If you notice I use “ish” when referring to the layers. That’s because there are cases where there is debate on where one layer end and another begins. What’s important though are the concepts of the layers and not so much to slot every bit of what a specification has into each of those layers.
Here’s pic of the Zigbee layers. Notice the “}” bits on the right side showing the “defined by” and “Zigbee Wireless Networking”. When people say “Zigbee” they are referring to the two standards with just that one word.
I find all of this confusing as well. Now my understanding of Thread is that a hub or bridge isn’t really required because the devices all communicate directly with each other. The protocol does seem to be a lot more advanced than Zigbee or Zwave. I can’t see there being many features left out. If anything there should be more. It uses the same radio frequencies as Zigbee. I believe when the manufacturer of the blue series was talking “upgrading to matter via firmware” it was likely matter over thread since there is an upgrade path from zigbee to thread provided the hardware can handle it memory wise.
Yes to just releasing a separate firmware for blue switches allowing the owner to use Thread/Matter or Zigbee on the same switch. If Matter catches on wholesale at some point you might reverse the default. Factory-install Matter/Thread and allow customers to install Zigbee.
Pretty positive Matter as of spec 1 will not support all the bells and whistles capable of Zigbee today, Binding separate device together for example. This leaves it up to the customer to use what works for them.
I for one still want you to follow through with Matter/Thread firmware and build in as much functionality as possible.
You will likely be using openthread, most everyone else uses it, hopefully Inovelli/silabs target at or above the thread 1.3.0 spec on the MG24
Personally, I don’t see the need for a dedicated Thread switch that isn’t Matter compatible at this point. There are only a couple of hubs that support Thread (Apple/Amazon) and they will definitely be moving quickly to Matter.
If you go for Matter support now, you might be one of the first to market with a Thread/Matter switch and could generate a ton of buzz based on that. The market for a non-Matter compatible Thread switch would be small and shrinking IMO compared to what your Zigbee/Zwave markets are. So, it would be wasted effort IMO.
I’m primarily an apple user, but Google is on the move here too. On dec 15 they released Matter over Wi-Fi for several of their devices, original Google Home speaker, Google Home Mini and Google Nest Mini, the Nest Audio, all three Nest Hub devices (first gen, second gen, and Max), and the Nest wifi pro. Through Nest (the primary inventor of thread back in 2012 or so) Google is also preparing updates for Matter over Thread for the Nest Wifi Pro, Nest Hub Max, and Nest Hub (second gen), all of which do thread now.
I feel you’re right here. At this stage, I don’t think there really would be a market at all for a thread-only switch. Matter over Thread is definitely the way of the future. But if thread uses the same frequencies as Zigbee, and the chipset in the Blue series can support thread, is unique hardware really needed? 1 switch with 2 sets of firmware depending on which protocol the user wants would make things a whole lot cheaper to bring to market. (Assuming it’s possible)
Pretty certain this is exactly what inovelli plans to do … single hardware platform and user changeable firmware, either Zigbee (blue series) or Matter over Thread (white series). Even as a longtime Apple user, I would vote they should not waste any dev time, resources and money to do Homekit over Thread firmware.
I have zero doubt the Matter over Thread (Matter 1.0 was only recently released into the wild) firmware software capability will be less than the Zigbee (zigbee 3.0 very mature by comparison) firmware, but that is OK and the buyer will have the ultimate choice in which firmware to use.
After skimming this thread, I have one major question:
Will the current ZigBee 2-1 switch receive thread support?
Based on the initial post it sounds like that would be completely possible—however since you’re launching an entirely new product, that makes me think the thread support while present in the currently shipping devices, will simply remain disabled, and those needing Thread support will need to go buy another round of switches.
My understanding is the current Blue switches run on a chip that is capable of doing either Zigbee or Thread, depending on the firmware running. Switching between the two requires hooking up a data cable to the switch to flash some really low-level firmware that is incapable of over the air updates. Newer Blue products, however, will be running on chips that are capable of flipping between Zigbee or Thread via over the air updates.
