Zigbee 2-1 Switch (On/Off & Dimmer) | Project New Horizon (Blue Series)

Yes, I have been extremely disappointed in Hue and I hope they change their minds. It would be one thing if they would flat out say they don’t want to work with us, but the whole, “you need EnOcean in your switch” makes zero sense for an in-wall switch.

We talked to the EnOcean people and even they said it didn’t make any sense to have their technology in the switch, but rather we should work with them for a remote option.

It’s almost like they don’t fully understand what an in-wall switch can do and how it would benefit them. I even made this fancy graph for them, but they still kept saying, “in order to be considered, you need to put EnOcean in your switch”.

So, at this point, I’m just going to take the loss and my hopes are that once these things start flying off shelves, we can have more data to go back to them to show them this is a viable option for them to consider.

It would also be helpful if Hue customers who have the Inovelli switch write in or tweet at them. Maybe then they can adopt a page from our playbook and listen to their customers.

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From a tech side, we were presented with a choice from the engineers:

  1. Hack their key encryption and force our products to work on their system (essentially going around them)
  2. Use a third party hub and bypass the Hue gateway

While option #1 is very tempting, and I’m assuming some of the other companies that say they work with Hue (but aren’t Friends of Hue Certified) have done this, my fear is that Hue would catch on and modify their encryption in one of their hub updates and that would cause issues on our end as it’s out of our control – plus, if there ever was a potential of partnering in the future, that would likely be out the door if they caught on to us hacking their encryption.

So, for now, we’ll have to collect as much data as we can around who is using their bulbs with the Inovelli switch and what hub their using to explain to them that they’re missing out on hub sales and people are taking their products outside their ecosystem.

Finally, the next option, which I’m moving forward with is to just create our own ZigBee bulb lineup and build something outside of them. Our Z-Wave manufacturer has an entire suite of bulbs that are amazing and ready to go – we just need the capital to purchase and support them.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.

EDIT: The one thing we’re exploring is to see if we can use the EnOcean module instead of the SiLabs module. The EnOcean module has the ability to use ZigBee. It definitely won’t happen for our first launch and there are still some follow up questions I have for the EnOcean folks (just sent an email) regarding OTA and Matter, but if it is as simple as swapping the module, it may be something we can explore to, “check the box” with Hue. Still ridiculous, but it is what it is.

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Did you mean Zigbee manufacturer?

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No, our Z-Wave manufacturer produces ZigBee as well :slight_smile:

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You have textured walls like me (and the same color apparently). They are a pain to get Command Strips to get a good grip on.

Beautiful switches, BTW. I’m putting in an order to change out the rest of my non-Inovelli switches once these are released.

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Awesome, thank you for being so responsive. Good to know on the contact sensors; I’m mainly looking at the Aqara leak sensors (SJCGQ11LM) and vibration sensors (DJT11LM).

@chack thank you for testing that out and all the information.

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So I just ordered some Aqara sensors for fun to see what all the fuss was about (plus I’m just a big Xiaomi fan in general) and got the water/leak sensor, temp and a button.

What hub are you using these with? I am testing it on SmartThings, but I don’t know how to directly include the sensors to the switch like you can in HA.

I also don’t really know how to check the routing in ST for ZigBee (I can for Z-Wave).

I’ll do some more research tonight, but if there are any ST ppl out there that are curious and are more familiar with Aqara, let me know!

I haven’t used ST in years (Hubitat FTW), but last I tried, you had to do something like this, which should theoretically work on any Zigbee platform:

Though, as is often the case, the Hubitat forums have better instructions for how to set it up. :smiley: Everything Xbee - Devices - Hubitat

I have had cases where this doesn’t show my entire network, and it looks like people on ST have, too. In my case, one of them was a Xiaomi device whose routing I was trying to verify, but hopefully that’s just coincidence and doesn’t also happen for you. Ha. (In my experience, where I have been able to verify, Xiaomi devices don’t like to find new parents and will just fall off the network instead — one of at least a couple reasons they might — so I assume that the routing I discovered on pairing was how it remained indefinitely. But others have reported that they have seen routes change. This may depend on your Zigbee network or the specific Xiaomi devices in question.)

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Nice, yeah I was reading through that thread a bit ago – above my pay-grade at the moment, but I’m going to power through haha.

It seems like ST takes a bit to populate the ZigBee routes. When I first looked, it kept saying, “Next Hop = Unknown (0)” but then later changed and showed the route (which was unfortunately directly to the hub – unfortunate in the sense that I wanted it to hop through the light switch – fortunate bc in real world usage, it’s a short distance to the hub). I paired a leak sensor further away from the hub in hopes that it would route through the light switch which is on the way to the hub. I guess time will tell.

I guess theoretically if @chack is having a good experience on Home Assistant, it at least proves that the switch can be a good router/repeater if need be.

Thanks for the explanation – I may also try Hubitat to see if I can get it to route manually!

Oh dang. I’ve been ousted!

I’ll post back once I have something more concrete to share with groups.

Right now, I can say groups and Hub responses are fast for individual bulbs though. Honestly, I can’t say which fires first.

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from Imgflip Meme Generator

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Just to play devil’s advocate: if Hue is saying EnOcean in the switch means inclusion in Friends of Hue, what’s holding you back from just putting it in there just to get the foot in the door? I’m asking because sometimes in our engineering we just do what is required to integrate with others even if some of the requirements don’t make sense.

I was under the impression Philips isn’t open to the switches pairing at all, but it sounds like they are as long as EnOcean is in the switch.

Being able to pair with the Hue Hub is basically a deal breaking requirement for many users who aren’t going to want to redo their Hue setups.

My perspective may be different than others, I’m in the demographic which uses the Hue Hub, and is not interested in replacing it: so the Blue series w/o Hue Hub compatibility is basically a deal breaker (at this time).

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It’s a good question and a fair one. This is something we’re exploring right now – I’m waiting on feedback from the EnOcean guys regarding this email:

I’m hoping it’s as easy as swapping things out and we’ll see what they say. At this point though, we’ve already gone down the SiLabs route and are close to production, so I don’t think anything can be done with this batch, but if it really is as simple as swapping out the SiLabs one with the EnOcean one, then I’m all for it assuming the costs are similar.

Regarding the FoH and EnOcean requirement, it’s a first step in getting approval, but they want us to do a market analysis, have some metrics to back up our statements, etc before they consider putting time and money into resources to make it work. So, hopefully this first batch of ZigBee switches show that there is demand there and we can work in parallel on an option for them.

I’m with you though, I wanted so badly for this to work in the Hue ecosystem simply for the reason you just said – no one wants to redo their setup and many people don’t want to invest in a specialized hub.

Stay tuned! We are working on it and not giving up :slight_smile:

Edit: Phone call w/EnOcean on Tuesday April 5.

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I will buy many of these with or without FOH status. TBH my Hue hub is only used as a buffer to prevent their zigbee bulbs from borking the rest of my zigbee mesh. I’m on completely the opposite side of the street from @red930. I want a full-featured in-wall switch that I can configure to my heart’s content in HE, and Hue can twiddle away in a corner. To me the Hue environment is similar to Apple iOS - all slick GUI design, but with straightforward settings and features that are hard to find or completely missing. Can’t wait for you to reach the pre-order milestone!

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I’m just getting started with Home Assistant and only have some WLED projects, Spotify, and some speakers configured. I’m ready to jump in with both feet and the Blue Series along with my HA Yellow (with built in Zigbee radio) that I’ve preordered are where I’m headed. I am very excited for the possibilities of the multi-tap functionality. The fact that these can be so much more than just a light switch has me very excited. I envision a switch in our kitchen where 2 taps will start my wife’s favorite playlist, 3 for mine, etc. Auto control of outdoor lights, scenes, Head down to the basement to watch a movie, 3 taps on the switch an on comes the TV, receiver, inputs are set, lights go to the correct level. I can’t wait to get going…

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Is it correct to say that even if these talks fall through the switches will still work with Hue bulbs but may require integration via a separate hub like Smartthings to work in that case (and perhaps suffer slightly from millisecond delays) or would the switches be completely incompatible with Hue bulbs?

Apologies for the unsophisticated question but I’m pumped about these switches but also have a fairly sizeable investment in Hue already. I do also plan to run a ST hub though

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This is an awesome idea. I would love to set that up!

The multi-tap feature has been a game changer, I love it. I really got used to using the favorites button at the top right too. I think I have a scene setup for almost every room.

I’ll have to figure out how to do the playlist thing with Google Home. That’s such a cool idea.

Great question! Yeah they will definitely still work with Hue bulbs but will require the hub as you mentioned until there’s an official integration with Hue’s hub :frowning:

How it will work is you pair the Hue bulb to SmartThings (or whatever hub you’re using) and depending on that hub, you can either directly pair the switch and bulb together (via ZigBee bindings) or you can use Smart Bulb Mode to control them (may be a slight delay depending on the hub).

I can go into more detail about SBM if you want, but I didn’t want to bore you with details if you just wanted the simple answer of yes, they will work with Hue with a third party hub regardless of any partnership.

I’ll try to grab a video of ST and Hue bc I have the same setup!

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That would be amazing. Thank you!

Yes, same here! Hue is my “who cares” portion of my Zigbee network when it comes to being part of a mesh :slight_smile:

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The Chinese will figure out a backdoor. It’s just a matter of time and money.

FWIW, this is how I’m already using Inovelli’s existing Red Series switches and dimmers for this. The fact that they are Z-Wave while Hue is Zigbee doesn’t matter; that’s what your hub (I wouldn’t really recommend SmartThings for this if you care about speed or local execution, but…same idea, I guess, haha) is for. I don’t really notice any perceptible delay here (with local execution), and the fact that Blue Series are Zigbee won’t really help me out since I’ll continue to do the same. Even if they could work with Hue directly, I think I’d still do this since it is likely to give me far more control than a direct Hue pairing ever would.

Just my take…adding to Eric’s above. :smiley:

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