Now that location for presence sensing matters, can this be installed in place of a smart aux switch in a 3-way? Or does it have to be in the box with power, even if the box with power already has a smart switch? I assume the smart switch in the box with power passes power to the other box?
I hope too but I am guessing at this point that no news is bad newsā¦
In a multi-switch setup i.e multiple switches, not Auxs, this wonāt be anything different from the Blues or the Reds. The switch will require a hot and a neutral.
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Aux usually has 2 wires going to it, neutral and traveler. Youād have to re-wire them to be hot and neutral and use it to control the main switch via association.
Iām really excited about these switches, so Iām probably checking this thread more than I should, but itās a bummer to hardly see any updates. Checking the website, it looks like itās now pushed to a November/December release. iirc, it used to say September/October not even a week ago.
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Good eye. I wonder how firm that new target is. Is it as soft as the previous targets or is it actually a realistic date now? As in, have enough of the issues been worked out at this point that itās more reliable of an estimate than beforeā¦
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I hate pinging people directly, so sorry in advanceā¦
@EricM_Inovelli / @Eric_Inovelli - a status update is due, here. I understand that youāve likely run into problems with these switches and hesitate to explain to the community whatās going on because bad news sucksā¦ but weāve passed deadlines on the last estimated shipping date, and now weāre seeing shipping dates showing November on the landing page.
Some honest insight could really go a long way here. Project backers are kind of owed that, donāt you think?
Thanks!
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Agreed, @Eric_Inovelli if you could just drop a note for those of use who have been holding off on updating our house it would be appreciated. Pushing the deadline out month by month makes it really difficult to figure out if Iām ever going to be able to use these at all.
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Hey guys, Iāve been holding out on an update because weāve been in the middle of beta testing and have some decisions to make that I donāt have all the answers to. I was hoping to hold off until I have all the answers (should be in two weeks), but I suppose if everyone wants an update, itās the least I can do.
Weāre caught in between a rock and hard place right now as we have a product that works, and delivers on the promises that weāve set out initially, but we just donāt think the user experience is going to be great.
Let me expand a bit.
The switch that weāve been testing does detect presence and it does a decent job at it. Itās the decent part that I donāt like as thatās not the brand that we aim to be.
One of the main issues is the lack of left to right zones. While we didnāt promise this feature, when testing in my office, my switch would turn on randomly even when I wasnāt in the room. We spent days, even weeks trying to figure out why this was happening. We thought it was EMF interference, but what it turned out to be was that people were walking outside my office in the parking lot and it was setting off the sensor. When I brought the distance down to eliminate the sensor going outside of the walls, the sensor never came on when I wasnāt in the room.
The problem with shortening the distance is that this shortens the entire field of view distance and the sensor could no longer pick me up at my desk.
Let me illustrate:
As you can see in the second picture, the area the sensor picks up is too small to reach the back of the office where I was sitting.
So then the next idea was to keep the distance the same, but lower the intensity of the sensor and hope that at a lower intensity, it wouldnāt be able to go through walls. Unfortunately, that didnāt work very well because when I was sitting at my desk, the sensor wouldnāt pick me up all the time as it couldnāt detect micro-movements anymore.
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The only way to solve this is to add left to right zones. Something similar to this:
Weāve gone back and forth with the manufacturer and they said the only way to do this was upgrade the sensor to one that had this feature, but that hasnāt released yet and wouldnāt until Q4. Even then, it was a beta release.
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So we decided to take two paths:
- Continue to develop this switch and see what the beta testers thought and see if we could continue to tweak the firmware a bit to minimize the potential user experience frustration
- Start to develop a new switch with our main manufacturer (the one that makes all of our current switches) that utilizes a completely different mmWave sensor and have them R&D on their own, giving them the pain-points weāve experienced and see if they can find a sensor that would solve for it
Iāve kept #2 hush, hush because I didnāt want to tip off the manufacturer whoās making the mmWave switch and I also just didnāt want to promise anything to you guys without knowing how well the second path performed. I also secretly hoped that path #1 would pan out and we could improve the experience.
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Path #2 was not panning out initially as the manufacturer informed us that a lot of the mmWave sensors they were testing were not living up to the specs that were promised by these mmWave sensor manufacturers. This is exactly what weāve been seeing too. These manufacturers will promise this amazing mmWave sensor, but when you test it out, the listed specs are either completely false or they just donāt perform as well as they should.
In addition, with a limited footprint inside the switch, thereās only so many mmWave sensors we could choose from.
It wasnāt until about a couple of weeks ago, the manufacturer sent us some good news that said they found a reputable sensor manufacturer and theyāve been testing it and itās been performing amazing. I was skeptical until they sent us some videos of them testing and it did seem legit. However, I still want to test it myself and thatās where we are right now.
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The new sensor is a 60GHz sensor that offers the following:
- Left / Right Zoning
- A learning mode where the sensor can learn what objects are in the room that would interfere with readings (ceiling fans, etc)
- Breathing detection
- Counts the number of people in the room
- Plus everything the current sensor offers
The problem is that this sensor is $15 more than the current one, which makes the manufacturer price significantly higher.
Ok, so where does that leave us?
Weāre going to continue to develop the current switch (it has finished ETL/FCC/IC testing and just needs to go through Zigbee/Z-Wave certification) but simultaneously develop the new switch. I firmly believe that the sensor works well as weāve had a relationship with this manufacturer for 3+ years and they are very honest with us in terms of if they can or cannot do something. They are confident in the sensor and have tested it thoroughly. We have a great working relationship with them (the reason we chose a different manufacturer initially was because they were less expensive, had a factory outside of China which saved us 25% tariff, and theyāve developed switches for a large IoT company) and believe they can pull this off.
I will have a working sample on October 21st, but Iāve asked them if they can at least just give me the sensor to test within the next week or two so I can confirm what I saw in the video and also release these videos to you guys bc Iām well aware of how it may look where it looks like weāre just kicking the can down the road while we hold onto pre-order money. I want to share video evidence that the new sensor works and this is why we went this path (if we do).
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At the end of the day, hereās how weāre approaching this (as we do every project). We donāt want to release something that isnāt up to the standards weāve set. Sure, it would be nice to be the first with a mmWave switch and it would be nice to wrap up this project as itās already almost a year late. But at the same time, we want to put something out that weāre absolutely proud of, that you guys are proud of, and that sets the standard for what gets put out by other companies in the future.
You guys have paid a lot of hard-earned money for these switches and the last thing weād want as a company is for you to feel let down by what youāve received. If it means we have to take a hit on costs (weād be sacrificing about $100k worth of our own money that we wouldnāt get back in certification fees, tooling, etc and also pay a higher price per unit), Iām ok with that if it means we have an amazing product. Thatās the benefit of being privately owned, we donāt have to answer to shareholders who want huge returns and would pressure us to put out a product that simply meets our promises, we can choose to take a hit to put out something that we know is best for the customer (and us quite frankly, these will be in our houses too).
Anyway, what we plan on doing if we do decide to go down Option #2 is to obviously give anyone whoās purchased the switch already the upgraded model for the same price and also extend that same price for any future purchases of this switch (for those that pre-ordered up until the decision is made to go with Option #2). The MSRP will increase about $10-15, but again, that will only apply to anyone who hasnāt backed the switch up until the point we officially go with Option #2.
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I donāt have a timeline on Option #2, but the good news is that the firmware can easily be built upon whatās already created for our base Dimmer model and it will be consistent (we had to build the new firmware from scratch with the new manufacturer as they werenāt able to use the source code).
I also donāt have a ton of answers yet, all I can say is that this is the top priority and the Option #2 manufacturer knows this.
With Option #1, like I said in my novel above, we just need to go through Z-Wave/Zigbee Certification and production, so I would assume it would take about a couple of months before it gets sent to us if all goes to plan (which it hasnāt obviously).
So for those who have deadlines to meet, I apologize, but I donāt think I can give a solid answer for the timeline, other than we are moving as fast as we can and Iām well aware of the frustration (bc Iām also feeling it with this project).
Thanks for attending my Ted Talk.
Edit: I plan to share any videos we take of the new sensor as we create them.
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Thank you for sharing an update Eric. You guys are in a tough spot, but I firmly believe youāre doing the right thing. Thank you for all of the hard work on this project! Iām excited for the final switch.
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Great update Eric, very nice to see transparency throughout the process. Are you soliciting feedback on whether or not to do path #1 or #2? To me #2 seems like a no-brainer, given the very lengthy process already, whatās a few more weeks?
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Thank you Eric for the update, I was worried for a moment that something happened and we werenāt getting anything usefull and something went wrong. I am glad you are taking the time to make sure it is a product we will love instead of a product that was pushed out because of deadlines. I have no problem waiting for Option #2 as it seems like was what we were looking for when we originally backed you in this project. I know it has been a long time, but at this point we can wait untill it is a product you can be proud of. Again thanks!
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I agree with you, but āa few more weeksā is not a reasonable time frame here for āoption 2ā. Youāre talking about 6 months at a minimum, and easily another year.
Sorry - tone is hard to express in text. The āfew more weeksā was said with a bit of tongue in cheek. Apologies, I didnāt mean to insinuate that the project could be resolved in weeks with option #2.
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I am fortunate in that I am not in a time crunch. I will happily wait as long as it takes for option#2. I would also be willing to split the difference on the increased cost.
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That is an update! Not an engineer or developer, but I have personally built 4 mmWave ESPhome enabled sensors and had some good successā¦ goodā¦ not GREAT.
As you explained, it immediately hit home and explained my exact issues Iāve had with mine.
With the cheaper sensors itās a balancing game. I personally would suggest path2 if the capability pans out.
Iāve used a more expensive sensor in one of my rooms and used the HLKRadarTool to tweak. It really is difficult problem to solve and I worry that if you donāt have learning modes for end-users they wonāt be any better than the cheap sensors.
Iād say my bathroom mmWave sensor upgraded and tweaked worked like 98% of the time where the ones before were like 85% of the time.
I really appreciate your update and your decisions you have to make on this one. It will certainly be a hard thing to please everyone even with the upgraded sensor.
mike
Thanks for the great update! Iām in no hurry myself, and certainly willing to wait for the higher quality product. 
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Echoing others, thank you for the extremely detailed update! Iāll happily wait patiently for the switches to be great UX versus an inferior version. Iām glad this amount of thought and quality control is being done, even if it means waiting another couple of months.
Thank you Eric, as always. You guys are amazing.
Iāll happily wait for option #2, if itās what is being decided. Iād prefer #2 over #1.
Time is not an issue for me, and I stand behind aiming for highest quality. This is what differentiates Inovelli from other brands in my mind.
What sensor did you use? Iām debating between the EP Lite and the Apollo MTR-1 for tracking three zones (and sets of lights) in my kitchen. I know the Apollo uses the HLK-LD2450 and thus, HLKRadarTool.
It would be neat if the sensor that Inovelli is looking at was also an HLK and could make use of that tool for power user tweaking, if itās effective.