3-Way Issue - ON/OFF's Only | (Wiring Correct, But Lights Not Behaving Properly)

Switches Wiring Discussion
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#15

@Eric_Inovelli Has there been any further development/testing done on this issue? At this point for me, I will probably have to remove the switch from the 3-way location it is in now and put it somewhere else because it is not working as it should there.

Edit
I, in fact, did remove the switch tonight. It’s not working in 3 way and I am not sure when or even if it will work. I have other 3 way locations but they currently have dimmers installed. Not completely upset but one of the main reasons for trying the inovelli was the no aux switch requirement which is not the case here.

#16
  1. Black? the box is all black with a red triangle
  2. 3-way
  3. line/load in same box
  4. 2 and 3. 2 different switches, same problem.
  5. Electric Zone. EZ-A615-BA-2700K-A6
  6. 10’
  7. Things work fine but if I switch the dumb switch into the other position the smart switch no longer operates the lights. The smart switch always has power so the LED lights up like it’s turning on the lights but it doesn’t make the connection…
#17

Some sort of feedback on this from inovelli would be great.

#18

@eric_inovelli
Black LZW30 - 3 way dumb switch in one position switch will not turn on/off from smart switch. other position works but when off the lights are dim.

  1. Type of Switch Black
  2. Type of setup 3-Way
  3. What schematic are you following line/load in same box
  4. 2 strings 50 feet each led Christmas lights
  5. Not sure will need to look
  6. 20 feet

Thought about adding in a bypass to see if that would work. I also have 2 new Red dimmers but didn’t want to waste one for this location. I can try if we need to see if it works.

#19

Any updates from inovelli on this one?

#22

I put a couple posts here that were related to a dimmer issue. I now see this is not the right place so I deleted them. I’ve added a new post to (LZW31-SN turns off randomly) which seems more correct.

LZW31-SN 3-way wiring problem
#23

Still hoping to see some sort of official response in this topic…

#24

Hey guys – sorry for the MIA – been playing catch up on a lot.

Ok, so here is the email chain back and forth – but what it boils down to is that the on/off switch has some issues with dimmable bulbs, so if on/off bulbs can be used in this scenario, that would be best.

Also, thanks to @exo, who has been copied on these emails.

Email Correspondence:
Note: There is some things that are redacted for NDA purposes. I’ve also cleaned up some of the English so that we all can better understand.

Eric to Manufacturer

Hey –Redacted,

I’m reaching out in regards to the PM sent in Microsoft Teams around an issue that we’ve found with our On/Off Switches installed with a dumb switch in a 3-Way setting.

If you recall, we chatted about this a while ago on WeChat, but we could never replicate the issue.

Good news is we’ve been able to successfully reproduce the issue due to help from @exo who purchased an Inovelli switch.

Basically, what seems to be happening is the smart switch has an issue where, if the dumb switch is in a certain position, sometimes the smart switch does not turn on (even though you can hear the relay turn on as well as the LED bar light).

I’ve sent the videos in Teams and we’ll also send out the materials we’ve purchased so you can set it up on your end, but I also think your engineers may be able to replicate this issue using a light fixture such as the one shown in the video if you have any. When we tested prior, we (and your engineers) were using standard A19 bulbs which don’t seem to have a problem.

–Redacted

Let me know if you have any questions and have a great day!

Thanks,

Eric

Founder / CEO | Inovelli

Sent from my Android

Manufacturer to Eric

Hi Eric & @exo ,

The first thing, please double confirm the wiring for dumb switch is correct or not .

If the diagram is correct, our engineer –Redacted will follow up for more details to figure out what happened for this issue .

Hello –Redacted,

Please follow up and come over and I will show you the video from Eric which is too big to upload on mail or Wechat.

image
image.jpg1094×462 136 KB

Also, please note the spec from light fixture connected with switch which doesn’t work properly .

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sea-Gull-Lighting-Traverse-II-6-in-White-Integrated-LED-Recessed-Kit-14701SC-15/303060377?cm_mmc=ecc--STH_DELIVERY_COMPLETE--20191120_STH_DELIVERY_COMPLETE-_-Product_URL__W845567186withTHD

Eric to Manufacturer

Hey –Redacted,

I’ve confirmed the wiring is correct in this scenario. Thanks for checking!

Thanks,

Eric

Founder / CEO | Inovelli

Sent from my Android

Manufacturer to Eric

Hello Eric and @exo ,

As per confirmed with our engineers, the schematic for dimmable driver is the key reason that leads to the issue as mentioned below .

It’s feasible to connect with PWM dimmable bulbs such as some standard A19 bulbs however the leading edge or trailing edge dimmable bulb may have some issues. As you can see from pic from below, the detection signal in KEY1 which helps identify whether the switch is connected to a dumb switch or an aux switch is charged between N port and Load which means if the load is leading edge or trailing edge dimmable bulb will affect the waveform for KEY1 the left side as below pic.

The conclusion is that it is better to connect on-off bulbs instead of dimmable bulbs with the on/off switch if you are not sure the dimmable type bulb you will connect .

Hope above explanation could help you figure out and let us know if you have other questions freely.

image
image.jpg2568×734 624 KB

NOTE: I’ve redacted a few things from the picture because I didn’t know what it said as it was in Chinese and I didn’t know if it was sensitive or not.

EDIT: Forgot to include the follow up questions I had for them:

Eric to Manufacturer

–Redacted,

Can this be fixed via a firmware update or is this a hardware issue?

Thanks,

Eric

Founder / CEO | Inovelli

Sent from my Android

Manufacturer to Eric

Hello Eric ,

It would be tough to fix it on both firmware and hardware .

The current design for on-off switch needs identify the dumb and aux switch in 3 way setting which means there is a detection circuit inside .

If it also needs to detect the leading edge or trailing edge dimmable bulb as well which means the detective signal from KEY1 may have some overlap and conflict risk to identify above dumb and aux switch .

Generally speaking, if on-off switch must be compatible with edge dimmable bulb, there is only one way to figure out as dimmer switch to have parameter 21 and parameter 22 to set a value on APP to make sure the switch would connect with dumb or Aux switch in advance that means the firmware and manual should be revised and make switch more complicated.

So, we propose to make switch easy to understand and use and tell end-users connect with on-off bulb only for switch and dimmable bulb for dimmer switch if end-users are not sure the dimmable type bulb they will connect.

Curious what you guys think as I’m no engineer by any means, but it sounds like this could be fixed the same way the dimmer switch works if you want to use a dimmer bulb with the on/off switch (ie: program the switch to detect the aux vs dumb switch).

Red On/Off 3-way Gets Confused (technical term)
#25

Thank you for the response @Eric_Inovelli but my bulbs are non dimmable and i still have issues.

It would appear for me, and possibly others that there will be no easy solution to use this switch as intended. If i wish to use a smart switch in my application, i would need to try one of your dimmer switches, and even then it may or may not work based on responses here. Is that correct?

#26

I’m curious what is meant by “dimmable bulbs”. Do you mean “smart bulbs” that get signaled to dim themselves? Any incandescent is “dimmable” if you use a dimmer switch.

Just wondering if this is at all related to the dimmer problem of turning itself off after a random time (for one of the positions of a dumb switch). I have just plain incandescents so clearly unrelated if you mean something else by ‘dimmable’

#27

Hey @Blivit – as luck would have it, we just got a return where I’m seeing this exact behavior. In addition to that, the switch before it worked perfectly in the same setup.

Curious (as I legitimately cannot remember), did you have multiple switches that exhibit this same behavior or was it just one switch?

Reason I’m asking is maybe it just boiled down to a defective switch?

#28

Hey so for clarification, I mean dumb bulbs that can dim. The thread here is for On/Off switches, so that may be where the confusion lies.

In other words, the manufacturer is saying that for the On/Off switches, if you use certain dimmable bulbs, this may be what’s causing the issue.

#29

Just one switch here.

#30

Let me swap it out for you and see if that fixes it.

I’ll send you a PM!

#31

Thanks for following up on this.

Sounds like adding parameters 21 and 22 would solve a lot of the headaches people even if it means no more detection of aux vs dumb switches. It should really just default to dumb and for those who get aux switches, they can be informed to change param 22. I’m actually curious as to why param 21 would need to be specified though. With the On/Off, the basic assumption is that neutral has to be used in a 3-way so that can be defaulted no?

The other option is to have a firmware upgrade that’s optional but that’s accessible on this site. If people have problems, they could then upgrade their firmware to fix it. This would help with not having to reprint the full manuals.

Personally, I prefer the first option but either way, a firmware upgrade seems to be the real solution here.

#32

@Eric_Inovelli - I still owe you an answer from this email as well. I know I sent my $.02 with the interpretation of the O-Scope, but I still owe you if a non-dimmable bulb resolved my problem with the “Garage lights”. I do have aux switches to install too, but I’ll try the bulbs first. Just been busy with job interviews and holidays.

#33

My interpretation of the last email is that they would prefer people use non dimmable bulbs with the on/off switches but that can’t always be helped. For me I would have to mix bulbs and that’d make things look weird. Adding the parameters to manually determine aux/dumb switch would be best. Although even with the dimmers that have the parameters there is an issue with the smart switch not being fast enough to detect the dumb switch toggle if it’s done in quick succession. Have you asked the manufacturer about that issue Eric?

#34

@Eric_Inovelli I have received the replacement switch so thank you for that. Unfortunately, that does not fix my issue. As I had the time, I was able to spend a little more time with this. Bottom line, it’s my bulbs.

I installed the new switch, wired the exact same way that I have outlined and shown here. The switch behaved in exactly the same way as the other; will only fully function when the dumb switch was off. I then took out my led bulbs, also an item that I have shown here, and replaced with standard incandescent bulbs…and the switch worked 100% correctly. I had 1 hiccup where it turned on then off immediately but then I spent the next 20 minutes or so going back and forth to both switches turning them on and off with no issues.

These are non-dimmable bulbs. I have these throughout my house and I am not going to switch to standard bulbs. I also do not want to play the bulb roulette game in trying to find one that works (what I have is supposed to work according to everything here…but they don’t.) So, therefore, I cannot use this switch in any of my 3 way configurations. I was very excited to use these there as I did not want to have to buy an aux switch as these were marketed to not need one.

So, I am a little frustrated and not sure what to do. This has officially been a 1 month project…for a single switch.

*edit: after sitting while I typed this out…and after I spent 20 minutes going back and forth to each switch…now when I turn the inovelli on, it turns the lights on then immediately off with the dumb switch on. I can’t win here…

#35

Very frustrating! So I’m seeing two different problems here that we should think about one at a time. First, the “light goes out shortly after it comes on” problem. @Eric_Inovelli has started a new topic to collect data and understand why this is happening, but the workaround seems to be to set the maximum brightness a bit lower. Say 85%. That’s pretty easy to do if you have a hub that lets you send stuff like this, but you can do it manually with a LOT of button pushes. At the very least, turn down the brightness by holding the switch down until you just notice it getting dimmer. It should remember that as you turn it on and off. See if that works around that symptom.

As to the other (only works on one of the travelers when used with LEDs): When it works with incandescent but not LED, that sure sounds like a neutral problem to me (again @Eric_Inovelli is the expert here). I searched back through your responses here and I could not find a wiring diagram. But a couple things: Lights in the middle between the two switches is a PAIN IN THE NECK. The wiring is not always obvious. For example a single cable red/white/black at each switch may not be the same wires at each end. In addition, it’s not always obvious which wire is line unless you actually remove both switches and test. (Believe me, I had these experiences!). And the colors don’t necessarily match what you think they are. So if it were me, I would disconnect both switches, turn on the power, and figure out which one is line (only one should be hot at this point) and label it. Then turn off the power, UNSCREW THE BULBS and measure continuity to make sure you know which are the two travelers and measure continuity from neutral to ground (the bare wire) to make sure you know which is neutral. If you screw an incandescent bulb back in then the wire on which continuity to ground changes is the wire to the lights which has to go to the common side of the dumb switch.

And then, of course, if you really have a neutral connected to the Inovelli switch, the switch has to be configured to use neutral.

I hope this might give you some ideas, and please accept my full apologies if this is all obvious and/or just more frustrating to you or if you said somewhere that you did all this and I missed it. I just recently had a lot of testing and measuring to do to figure out which wire was which on two of my light circuits, so it is on my mind.

Good luck…

1 Like
#36

Thank you very much for the reply. Most of what you suggest/ask I have already done (different thread.) This thread was one created by Eric to gather similar cases. At this point, my frustration has gotten the best of me and I am not sure I am willing to try anything else with this switch in this location lol. I think it is fair to say it will not work for me in any of my 3 way configurations and will require me to either not have a smart switch in these locations or go with one of the inovelli dimmers (not even sure this will work) or buy an aux switch. None of these are things I had planned on doing as this switch was marketed to work in a 3 way configuration.

For now, I took it out…again…and put it back in the box while I decide what to do. I will probably use it elsewhere that is not in a 3 way.