3-way with no red, and can I put the Inovelli switch at the far end?

Is there more than one receptacle that is switched by the switches in question?

You’ve been doing this a long time, I can tell. There is! The plug on the other side of the bed that we’ve never had anything plugged into in 20 years or so.

I just confirmed by plugging a light into it that the top outlet is also switched.

Let’s see what’s in that box.

Saw that question coming! One 3-wire.

Same deal: top is switched, bottom isn’t. Triple quadruple confirmed just now with a light.

Ok, so those two 2-wires from the near box are going into the first receptacle. The 3-wire here just carries a constant and switched hot to this box.

Your only hope of figuring out what you have is in diagramming all of the connections in that first receptacle box. I can’t tell enough from your pics and video what’s going on at the receptacle.

I think one 2-wire Romex is bringing constant hot to the box. The other 2-wire could be coming back from the other switch. Can’t tell without knowing the connections at the receptacle.

I’m not sure if we’ll get this or not . . .

I refuse to allow my house wiring to stump you :grinning: I’m on vacation for two weeks. Plenty of time to do some sleuthing.

I can do some diagraming. Any suggestions for ways to trace the various wires in the box to figure out what they connect to? The 3-wire is easy, we know those go to the other receptacle.

This might be the situation you have. 2%20switch
Only in your case, the red traveler wire (going from switch to switch) in the picture is white for you.
And seeing how they used (2) 2 wire romex on the far switch, you would have white instead of red and black instead of white (hot) on the top. Then you would have a second 2 wire romex coming from the outlet with the black connected to the common screw and the white being capped off. The white should be an active neutral either connected to the outlet or wire nutted in the receptacle box.
And of course you would have the 3 wire romex going from receptacle to receptacle.
The picture doesn’t show the bottom half of the receptacle wiring or the neutral from the receptacle to the last switch. What’s Bry think?
Also, your hot coming into the first switch probably is wire nutted with a tail which would allow another 2 wire romex the switch box and go to the outlet. That first switch box had (3) 2 wire romex? Didn’t it?
This is getting to be good exercise for the brain.

Ok, as long as you’re in for the long haul.

That’s a three way with the receptacle between the switches. Pretty much the same diagram I posted earler, except mine had lights in the middle. It could be this configuration or it could be switch-switch-receptacle.

The thing that complicates this is that this is a 4-wire run, necessary because it’s sending both a constant and a switch hot, hence the four wires. Because we’re dealing with two 2-wires, it’s harder to trace.

It is a good brain exercise. However, this one is making my brain hurt. :thinking:

I think the best way is to diagram the existing. @neile I’ll start by with a diagram of the near switch box. Confirm after I post it.

Ok, here is what I THINK you have. Looking at the connections at the receptacle, if this was a receptacle in the middle, then I would expect to see connections wire nutted together to pass to the far switch. Like this:

But you don’t have that. The only wire nut is for the 3-wire used to mirror the other switch, and for purposes of this discussion, we’re ignoring that.

So looking at the receptacle, what I see is two 2-wires coming into the box. One 2-wire we know is a constant hot, since it’s wired to the bottom receptacle. The other 2-wire we know is a switched hot, as it’s wired to the top receptacle. All of the whites are connected together via the receptacle, so that is probably a common neutral.

So since I don’t see any connections being passed to the far switch, I don’t think this is a receptacle in the middle. I think it’s a switch-switch-receptacle.

The easiest way to think of this is consider it a simple switch-switch-receptacle 3-way. Let’s ignore the constant hot part for now. So a simple switch-switch-receptacle 3-way looks like this:

3way-switch-wiring-diagram-nm

But here is the neat thing about how all this works. In your mind, separate the three-way and the constant hot functions and just focus on the 3-way part. i.e. the switched receptacle part. Typically you would use a 3-wire between the switches. But the third wire, typically the white, is just used to pass along the neutral. But we don’t need that here because the neutral is being provided by the constantly hot 2-wire. So what that means is since you don’t need to pass the neutral (it’s already been done by the constant hot part), you can pull off the 3-way part with just two conductors. Like this:

Modified-3way-switch-wiring-diagram-nm

So if I am correct, what you have is this. Power starts in the near switch box with a pigtailed black to the black screw of the switch. One 2-wire Romex is connected to the two brass screws as travelers. I believe that those two travelers go to the far switch next, attached to the two brass screws. The switched hot comes back to the receptacle via the black in the 2nd 2-wire in the far box, attached to the black screw.

Once at the receptacle, the switched black is connected to the top terminal. The neutral is provided via the other 2-wire, probably coming from the near box, as part of the constant hot part.

How do you test this. Well in theory, disconnect everything from the receptacle and then check for continuity (WITH THE POWER OFF) between the two traveler connections between the two switches. Not sure how easy this is in practice, though.

How this translates to putting the Inovelli in the far box, I’m not sure. But at least I think I know how its wired now.

Read through this a few times and it does make sense.

Thinking about the far switch and the dangling white wire that’s in it, it’s the short run of wire that’s dropping down from the far switch to the receptacle to provide the dashed black line in your diagram above. They had to use a second piece of 2-wire Romex because it’s a dedicated short run unrelated to the wires going back to the near switch box. But they only needed the one black wire so the white is left unused (although it is likely tied in with all the other neutrals in the receptacle just because).

And since they didn’t need to run a neutral between the two switches with the constant hot being available that also explains why I don’t see any red wire running between the switches.

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Right, so in the far switch box, one Romex, 2 conductors bring the switched hot to the switch and 1 conductor from the other Romex, the black, is used to send the switched hot to the receptacle. The white conductor isn’t needed so it’s capped off.

@Eric_Inovelli @Brianna_Inovelli - Give this guy (@bry) some Inovelli swag. My mind is in reboot mode after reading this one…

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Yeah, we were just talking about this actually – I’ll be PM’ing, “the crew” shortly!

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Hold on there guys, we haven’t even figured out if I can swap the Inovelli switch location yet :joy:

@Bry since we now have a diagram and just need to prove it is correct it’s easy enough for me to kill the power and start testing each Romex for continuity. My plan is to go one connection at a time. Disconnect one end of the wire and tie the white/black together with a wire nut, then disconnect the other end and use my multimeter to confirm continuity between the black and white wire. This should prove that the wires go where we think they go. Then reconnect both ends and move on to the next wire.

With the power off at the breaker the entire time, of course!

We were JUST talking about this … like @Eric_Inovelli said… what types of swag do you all like? Asking for a friend…

You can’t really beat the Trade-Show Tee and lanyard we geeks are used to. Complete with QR Barcode and name badge please. Oh, and some weird branded thing nobody will really use…like a Pop Socket. Now if you changed the Inovelli “I” to be the font from The Incredibles and somehow avoided getting caught using the TM…that would be cool.

In reality…I would probably buy a Nike Dri-Fit or Callaway Opti-Dri Polo if you guys had them.

Do you need Pre-COVID or current size?

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I’m always interested in what people keep and throw away from trade shows. I personally love a pop socket but I am a millenial :joy:

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Take a look at this. Ultimately, it’s up to you to figure out what you have. This is what I THINK it might be.

I’d keep all the red dimmers. Just sayin . . .:joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:

Oh yeah . . and anything with the word Yeti on it . . .

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I believe around 2010 or 2011 code changed and required a neutral wire in that 2nd switch box, even if not used…? Neile was your house rewired after after 2010?