It may be something that varies country to country. I’m not even sure if there’s a standard in Poland, where I live, but what I have personally observed is that rocker switches usually are off when the top part is pressed. And the way I remember is that in this position the dust doesn’t settle on the, now hidden/depressed, side of the switch. And to turn it on, you press the bottom part.
This layout also has the benefit that when you try to find the switch in the dark to turn the lights on, it will be easier to press the lower part, since it’s at the “edge”. The top part is these 2 function buttons, so it’s a little trickier to hit it.
I briefly Googled for regulations in Poland and there are none for residential buildings, the common practice is what I mentioned. There are regulations for industrial switches for machinery, and these are “on/increase goes up”, so what you mentioned, Eric. And the dust collection argument is moot, as this switch isn’t true rocker, it just behaves like one but doesn’t stay depressed, right?
I think they would work the same in terms of User Experience, right?
Like, if you have smart bulb mode enabled, would you want to use the paddle portion to turn on/dim the smart bulbs and then the buttons up top to change colors (or color temp)?
–
I think it boils down to whether or not we want to have the paddle be able to “rock” back and forth or not. In other words, should the paddle be able to be pressed at the top and bottom or should it just be a singular push and the buttons up top be for dimming?
For smart bulbs, you could program it either way:
If you want the paddle part to just turn on/off, you could set an automation to have the top part and bottom part sync so that whenever the light is on and either button is pressed, it would turn off the light and vice versa via bindings or scene control. Then use the buttons up top to dim either via scene control or Zigbee/Matter bindings.
If you want the paddle to be a, “rocker”, you would leave it as is and have the top part of the rocker turn on the smart bulb and the bottom part turn it off and even have it so that when you hold down on the top/bottom, it dims (or have the buttons do the dimming).
Long winded way of saying, yes, absolutely smart bulb mode will be on the switch and there are a ton of options to program it to work.
I’m just trying to figure out how the non-smart bulb people want it too.
Yes, great point – I think I understand what you’re saying, but let me draw it out so I’m understanding/explaining correctly.
So, essentially the buttons at the top (blue in the picture) will always be flush. But the paddle (green in the picture) will start in a neutral state, but will be able to be depressed when turning on/off the switch.
Having it be able to both toggle on/off and hold for dimming would be good, gives it more functionality as well leaving the top buttons for other things.
For Norway, from what ive seen, the normal way is pushing the top part to turn the light on, and bottom is off. But there is no set standard.
From these two options, the first one feels more natural when considering dimming. This is also what I understood from your original description.
I personally don’t use dimming, so I would personally go with the second option, if both were available, as it completely eliminates the problem “which way is up”. I guess you’d rather start with just one version, in which case the first one makes more sense.
So my answer is: a millimeter wave presence detector would completely eliminate the need to touch it And then the first option makes more sense again.
I think the issue with a horizontal light bar at the top is that in the EU you will get double gang switches in one box, which would be a nice to have in the future.
This design won’t work well if you ever produce that product.
Where as a vertical US-style light bar would able to repeat for each button.
If it’s also addressable like a volume bar then it makes more sense with 0% at the bottom and 100% at the top in my view.
What is the USP of this product in the EU?
Aqara have the H1 which offers a single channel, Zigbee and Matter over Thread dimmer with a dial.
LightwaveRF has button based 1, 2, 3 and 4 channel UK dimmers with their own proprietary protocol, that has no support for customising the LEDs, and looks dated.
MOES have glass looking capacitive touch and rocker dimmers in 1, 2 and 3 channel variants which have Zigbee and or Wifi.
Where could Innovelli be different:
Full control over LED bar
Multi-gang dimmers
No neutral (some of the above work with this)
Smart bulb support
Rocker switch
Matt black or matt white look
Presence detection
Matter, Zigbee and/or Wifi support
I think you have most of this stuff in the spec, but the multi-gang/channel and lack off presence detection leaves the Aqara H1 looking quite similar.
What I’d want
For me, I’d want to have all my switches the same, and while I really appreciate the light bar, I really want something that gives me dimming, no neutral, and matter over thread.
The „Rocker“ option definitely makes more sense because you could use long press for dimming. In Germany there is no standard but mostly up is „on“ and down is „off“. Combined with long press for dimming this also feels most natural.
Ok, great! We will move forward with the rocker solution.
As for mmWave, if one more person asks… jk.
We are going to lead with a non-mmWave first and then depending on how it’s received in the US and how sales are in the EU, we will consider an mmWave solution. I’ve asked the engineer on the feasibility of it just now (since he’s desiging the PCB), so I can at least have an understanding on how hard it will be to produce.
I believe we would have all of those options except the matte colors (I can look into this) and presence detection.
I also prefer the rocker option, because even if some prefer to have one side only, we can customize the other side.
That said in France rockers that are toggles (being only pressable at the bottom) are really common. It’s a detail, but I would suggest a software option where only the bottom side is used to turn on and off, like a toggle. That would allow the “traditional” button way of working!
Agree with everyone that rocker is absolutely the way to go. While it’s a stateless rocker, it’s still the switch behaviour that most people will be familiar with, and the up = on and down = off functionality is going to take 2 seconds for people to figure out. if there’s parameters to allow you to configure that to be reversed or for both up and down to toggle power, then that could be great for those that want it. I might actually use the toggle alongside up-down for dimming, if allowed.
If we take the “Legrand” approach that was at my parent’s, the toggle with dimmer works like that:
Bottom is a toggle for on/off (and is a rocker, like the current direction for this product)
When you long press it cycles in loop with the intensity. This is a bit annoying because you need to wait to get where you want to be, and in the morning, you get flashbanged when trying to reduce the luminosity.
I would suggest in the “french” setup:
Short press bottom would be toggle on/off
Short press top would be for automation/scene/whatever you see fit, it’s a bonus button
Long press top and bottom: either dim up and down for only a light, but you could also take inspiration from Legrand and have that cycling thing. So that you would be able to control the light plugged into the switch, but also another light somewhere else as well as changing the luminosity of that one!
Schneider have those fancy “double switches” where one of the button will control the light in the adjacent room (only works with central integrated automation) and it’s actually pretty cool to use.
To be clear, those three options would be local configuration functionality presets? Option 1 should definitely be the default, then. I’m not sure the need for option 3, and dimming by long pressing the rocker would feel more obvious to me, but if you’ve got space in memory, it wouldn’t hurt.
That could be a good preset for option 2. I’d personally think the rocker should be purely for the switch it’s attached to with single press and with holds, and that up & down short press could both be power toggles – just hit the button either way and light happens – but, having a short up press as an additional scene/automation switch also makes some sense.
I don’t like the sound of Legrand’s dimming style at all, though. You can keep your 6AM flashbangs to yourself! For controlling other rooms and devices, already scene control with the two top buttons and, I believe, with multi-taps on the rocker.
Just wanted to provide a quick update for you all. The engineer is continuing to create the PCB layout and provide the AutoCad designs. He has not yet provided an ETA on it but will on the 9th when they’re back in the office. On the 9th we will also get the official timeline posted. Thank you for your patience on this!
Hi, I’m excited for your first(?) european product. Especially because you decided to go with Matter over Thread if I understood correctly. If it were connected by Wifi or Zigbee I wouldn’t be interested. And did I catched that correctly that mm Wave presence detection is off the table for the first generation of the switch but a consideration for a second generation?
Yes, this will be a Matter over Thread and will also have the option for Zigbee (for those interested). How it will work is that we’ve put a secondary MCU on the PCB which will allow you to pair the switch either by Matter over Thread or via Zigbee.
And yes, you caught it correctly, we are saving the mmWave for the next product assuming two things:
The base Dimmer sells well in the EU
The mmWave switch continues to perform well in North America once released (sales are great, we’re just waiting for the initial feedback once it’s released).
I should have the official timeline for each phase once the manufacturer is back from their holiday on the 9th of October! But, I know they’ve been working on the PCB layout and most of the firmware is complete since we’re using mostly the same firmware as our North American version.
Hi,
In ITALY 100% rocker switches work either in these ways:
A) you only press the lower part to turn on/off. The lower part protrudes and after it is pushed it returns back to its initial position.
B) The upper part turns lights off, the lower on. This is way more ergonomical. You enter a dark room and you just have to let your hand “fall” down the wall where the switch is and lights turn on.
Ps. I know many EU states still use the square design switches but honestly here in Italy the vast majority of the houses (and all new ones, 100%) use the “slimmer design”…like this for example (obviously without the led): Eve Light Switch (Matter) - Connected Wall Switch - Apple .
But let me ask you an honest question.
Apart from the “aesthetics", if you have a room with three wall-lights, what would you do? You’d put three giant square switches one next to the other?? It is horrible and takes too much space on the wall. Another example? Next to the entrance door you could have even 4 switches (two for the living room and two for the garden lights). I really hope this design will be considered in the future because it’s the only one who allows to put many switches side by side without filling an entire wall with switches…
And then the first option makes more sense again.