Red Dimmer - Possible Bug?

Installing a Red Dimmer with No neutral and dummy 3 way switch on a Hubitat. Typically I need to set parameters for “No Neutral” and “3 Way Toggle” to get things working. This time it didn’t work. After hours of trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, I set the Neutral parameter to “No Selection” instead of “No Neutral” and it began working perfectly. As soon as I selected “No Neutral” again it broke. Something is wrong here.

@wogfun - make sure you hit save preferences and not save device.

Understood, and yes. But as stated, switching the flag to the wrong position “No Selection” is what fixes the problem. It’s repeatable.

Edit for additional information:
I can also 100% rule out a wiring issue easily, because this exact switch has been installed and working as it should for a few months. Earlier today I accidentally excluded it from my hub. After including it again and attempting to set the known working configuration is when I ran into this weirdness.

@wogfun -What date is the firmware?

It was just updated this morning:

@wogfun. - Sorry, I was asking about the driver version date. Or are you using Hubitats driver?

You can’t use a dummy switch, you need to mate the dimmer with an Aux on a non-neutral installation.

See the notes under Non-Neutral Setup:

I missed that, but it does work. I’m able to turn the circuit on/off from both the inovelli and the dumb switch.

My Innovelli Dimmer Red Series LZW31-SN driver is dated 3-31-20

Good catch. I skimmed that part. That’s why you get paid the big bucks.

I just want to reiterate in case it’s being lost in the shuffle, this configuration WORKS, for months now: No neutral, dummy 3 way switch. In configuration I select “No Selection” for neutral and “3 Way Toggle” for switch type.

Super strange because they definitely are not designed nor rated for this setup. Can you show us how you wired it? I’d love to yell at some engineers :joy:

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I can take photos for you but I doubt that would be of much help. I have a multimeter, if there’s anything you’d like me to check I’d be happy to.

I’d love to see pics of how it’s wired . . . with the switches pulled out to see into the boxes. Thanks!

Ok before you say, neutral is right there! Yes, but as far as I understand not really. Hot and neutral from the panel go directly to my recessed lights. Then two leads (black and white) come down from the recessed lights to the red dimmer (tie them together and the lights come on). Then there’s also a 3 wire going directly to another wall box location where I have my dumb 3-way switch.

To be honest I don’t know how it’s really working. I also have the symptoms of a non-neural setup (one of the recessed lights stays on very dim when the switch is set to OFF)

Labeled diagram

No, I wouldn’t say that, actually. I don’t see a neutral there. As you suspect, that is a non-neutral configuration where power is supplied to the lights.

So the way this typically works with dumb switches is that the hot at the lights is connected to the white conductor of the 2-wire to the box with the 2-wire and the 3-wire. That white is typically connected to the white from the 3-wire going to the other switch. (It’s a little tough to tell if that’s what you have going on from your pic.) In any event, you now have a constant hot at the far switch. That gets sent back over one of the two travelers, connected to the first switch and then routed back to the light via the black on the 2-wire back to the light. The neutral is connected at the light. Anyway, that’s how it works with dumb switches.

So I’m not sure where we’re going with this post. We discussed earlier how you need an Aux on a 3-way with an Inovelli, but you said no, it’s working perfectly with a dumb switch. But now you’re saying that it’s not. I was trying to understand how you said you got it working perfectly so I asked for pics. So I guess my original advice stands. Mate the Inovelli with an Aux, as the use of a dumb switch with a non-neutral dimmer isn’t supported.

Not sure where you got that it isn’t working, it IS working. I was only pointing out that as typical with other non-neutral setups, I get a very dim light on occasion from one of the hats in the OFF position - typically remedied with a LUT. It’s exactly what I get with my ‘other’ 3 way setup in this home, and that one is using an AUX switch.

So I’m a little confused here. Bry, you seemed eager to learn how I had this setup a few days ago, and today you’re dismissing the configuration because it’s not “working perfectly”. I’m no expert, but I know, that YOU know, that a dim LED lamp in a non-neutral config is perfectly expected. You said it yourself on Jan 13 in this post:

Are the lights LED and is the switch a non-neutral config? If your kitchen light is not drawing enough amperage, you may need to install a bypass.

I called it a LUT before (thats what the package says), but yeah the correct term is “bypass”.

So maybe you just skimmed through my post, I do tend to go on and on… But at the end of the day I provided a schematic of how I have it connected, and it’s confirmed working, for about 2-3 months. Perhaps there’s another reason this isn’t recommended? Safety, longevity? But please, don’t dismiss it because it needs a bypass.

I didn’t dismiss your post and I read it with detail.

I said that I’d be interested in seeing pictures after @Eric_Inovelli expressed surprise that your configuration was working properly, as using a dumb switch with a non-neutral isn’t supported. I can’t answer your question about why it isn’t supported. The answers to those sorts of questions will have to come from Inovelli.

I guess I should have specified, I was reacting to this portion of your post.