Ok, we are talking about automating the global lux top end on the led’s for human factors related to room lighting. Basically, the objective would be to make the light levels always stay at a pleasant and meaningful level. If you don’t have a lux sensor on the device to automate the global levels to ensure no LED level is too bright then you have to make some guesses. Time can be another option.
Lets imagine for a moment that customers buy a dimmer switch and just want default LED action as lighting level for the load. Perhaps the default setting to set comfortable level of LED brightness is time based. Forget for a moment there are some other perhaps more accurate time approaches. If your device is aware of time from the time cluster all someone would have to do to enjoy comfortable levels of LED brightness is to add the device to their home automation hub/platform.
Switch level intelligence can potentially help to reduce driver complexity and therefore enhance ease of use. That’s at a high level and generally.
Lets talk crazy for a moment and say we went all out and put an atomic clock in the device and it was GEO aware enough to know exact sunrise and sunset 365. If you controlled CCT smart bulbs you could adjust color temp to expected daylight. If the devices were wifi time is a little easier.
But, yes, obviously, our hubs and systems can be automate in amazing ways. All different ways. All differing levels of success and failures. A dozen recipes to dim LED indicators. One thing that makes a brand and a product successful is consistency of experience for all buyers. Anything you can do to make your product experience consistent in this DIY space helps. I’m not just talking about LED lighting levels.
Just to be clear from the beginning, I’m not against a non-relay hardwired version but I am against any switch that doesn’t include a relay version.
When I began remodeling my condo I did so with the intention of adding as many smart devices as possible. There were no ceiling lights, there were only outlets controlled by switches for lamps, so that was one of the first upgrades. I tried several different types and brands of smart lights and in the end went with some ultra-slim RGBW WiFi downlights. I quickly learned a lot about smart devices, especially how my choice in lighting meant no local control at the switch which I’m reminded of whenever I lose my Internet connection. Besides that, the main issue I had was deciding on how to run power to the lights. That’s when I learned about smart switches with relays for smart lights.
After doing some research I purchased both the original Inovelli Z-Wave switch and the Zooz Double Switch. After trying both I went with the Zooz… I know, I know… but at the time I think Inovelli only had one switch available and Zooz had a much larger selection. Besides Zooz Double Switches I also purchased their Scene Controllers and installed them next to each other in every room. Since the lights were Wifi I used the Zooz switches as scene controllers and controlled them through HA. The Double Switch functioned as an on/off/dimmer switch and the Scene Controller as a trigger to run different automatons and scripts in Home Assistant for unique lighting scenes as well as curtain/blind control, and a couple more things.
Things worked fine until a couple months ago when I ran into an issue with dimming the lights. I was using the Hold and Release parameters of the Zooz switch with an automation and script to emulate the functionality of a dimmer switch but started having issues. For some reason while holding down an end of the paddle to trigger the automation and script to dim the lights the relay inside would abruptly shutoff and the Zooz switch would lock up. Zooz couldn’t figure it out so I switched to original Inovelli Z-Wave switch that I still had and configured it to work with the light automation and script and so far it’s been working fine. I needed more switches but the new Inovelli Red 2-n-1 wasn’t out yet so I bought a Blue 2-n-1 to try and that’s been working fine. I still have to replace the other Zooz switches but I haven’t decided on if I should get the Red or Blue 2-n-1’s and don’t know what the pros and cons would be for me so I’ll take any feedback I can get.
Now after explaining all that let me get to the question about having a version of a switch without a relay. So, I definitely would not want a switch that was only offered without a relay. A long as the base version included a relay than I’m not opposed to a non-relay version but I think it would only make sense to the consumer if there was a significant price difference that would make it more affordable. If there was then to save money I would have a multi gang box with one switch with a relay and the other switches without. But if there’s no significant price difference then I don’t see the benefit.
The only exception that I can see besides price would be if the relay was replaced with something of great benefit to me. The idea of the Alexa like speaker was the one suggestion that definitely interested me however if that was implemented, I would also hope to have it available in a version with the relay. I also think that in addition to a speaker a microphone would be equally if not more important. I use Home Assistant and they have a new voice control feature called Assist (which I haven’t tried yet) which works with Alexa but it would be awesome if Inovelli switches worked directly with HA Assist through some kind of HA integration. Being able to completely avoid Alexa or Google and use the Inovelli switch to give voice commands directly to HA would be awesome.
In my opinion, only a significant price difference or replacing the relay with something of great benefit to me would justify a switch without a relay. I need at least one switch with a relay in my electrical boxes because I need to control my smart lights. I don’t like the idea of running constant power directly to the smart lights for several reason but the main one being safety. Another reason is I don’t know if running constant power from the breaker directly to my smart light would conform with my local electrical codes. I also like having a relay in the switch because I could enable a the config button on the switch to locally control the relay which is important if the smart light loses its connection or needs to be reset. Resetting or connecting smart lights that use WiFi usually involves a process that requires turning the power on/off several times so having a switch with a relay makes that easier. Without a relay I would have to open the electrical box and disconnect and reconnect the wiring to simulate a switch turning the smart light on and off. The other option would be for me to flick the breaker on and off. However by using a Inovelli relay switch I just use the small config button to locally control the relay which saves me a lot of time and frustration. (As a side note, unless the firmware has been updated, my only issue with the small config button is its inability to be used as a scene controller like the paddle button with events for multiple presses, hold, and release.)
In regards to switches as a whole, if I had my way and could create my own switches I would have the following: A dimmer switch like the Inovelli 2-n-1, a multi-button scene controller switch like the Inovelli Walt project is creating, and then some kind of a fan switch with maybe a double relay and double paddle/rocker so that I could have both fan and light control on one switch. I would also make sure the fan switch was with double paddles/rockers is compatible with operating devices like covers because a lot of windows have two covers, a blackout cover and a see-through cover. A lot of covers usually come with a remote (just like a lot of fans do) but those remotes easily break and always seem to get lost so having a permanent wall switch would solve that and more.
Going back to the multi-button scene controller if I was making multiple cover plates to fit different consumer needs a plate that resembled cover control would be at the top of the list (which I think I already saw in the proposed ideas). I would make a cover plate with single cover scene control and another with double cover scene control for the same reason that I mentioned above. I’ve searched everywhere and have only found a couple cheap cover control switches so I’d have to assume that there’s probably a descent demand for them.
Oh I might as well add one more thing and that’s the ability for the switch to somehow receive the state of the brightness of the light and then reflect that in the LED bar on the switch. I currently have the parameters kind of rigged up in a roundabout way to work with an automation and script that changes the level of the LED bar based on the state of the brightness but having there be some type of direct communication would work much better.
Well, Im a noob here, just came across the company and the projects as I’ve been looking for a fan control solution to integrate well with Hubitat (of which I’m also relatively new, having transitioned over from Wink). So I’ve already put my pre-order in for Project Cheryl … 5 of them for all of the fans in my house. I love the design of the switch that @Eric_Inovelli posted here. That is EXACTLY what I’m looking for. But I have a “rule” for automation that is permanently installed in my house - that is for the devices to be able to operate independently of the automation system. So in this case I would want for Project Walt switch to be able to communicate directly to the Project Cheryl fan controller for basic control without the need for both to communicate with the hub. But of course they should also be controllable from the hub. Is that a mode that Project Walt and Project Cheryl will support? (BTW, I love the homage to the folks!)
Yes, Walt and Cheryl are both Zigbee devices. One way of getting them to communicate is by using Zigbee binding. That is set up via the hub, but after that, the two devices communicate directly with each other, independent of the hub. The canopy still remains hub controllable, though.
That is great news! Thanks for the response and the opportunity to educate myself a bit on Zigbee bindings. I’m looking forward to updates on the status of this project and especially when it opens up for pre-sale. I’m also open to doing any beta testing if needed.
I keep reading this and just don’t get the point of the switch needing any time of day awareness. Time based control is one of the reasons why a hub is being used.
There are lots of other software feature based on how it functions to signal to the hub or bound devices that is more important.
Not sure any of these suggestions matter at this point in time. Zigbee has time clusters so you can chose to use them or not when you create your firmware. Time awareness can cut down on traffic. Could potentially be useful with direct binding. I’m not sure I put any order of importance on the suggestion. I don’t see product suggestions as a feature exchange, but I understand that that is how some view these kinds of things. The product team prioritizes and benefits from more suggestions vs fewer suggestions. Take care.
Quick Update: Finally some progress from the manufacturer. We’re exploring two options to pull this off. The first being a haptic feedback type switch and the other being a traditional mechanical feeling switch. There are pros/cons to both that we’re working through, but ultimately, I think we’re leaning towards the haptic one. More to come. I at least wanted to give everyone reassurance that we’re working on this project!
While I can see pros and cons to both it seems haptic would be far more flexible. I would love to have a mechanical one but can see some distinct advantages to haptic such as a more flexible feedback
Decision making point here for my fan and light setup. I have my wall and J-box wired with two load lines into my J-box to control light and fan separately with this switch Leviton Switch. I want to smart-ify my fan and light so I can control them separate…and within the spirit of redundancy for those who are not smart home savvy, be able to control them when in case my hub goes offline (I did have a case where my zigbee network on my Hubitat go down).
If I were to replace this switch with the button controller and the fan/light module, would I still be able to achieve offline control if my zigbee network goes down? My understanding is that the fan/light module is controlled via zigbee binding with this button controller. If that’s the case, then would the better option be to expand my 1-gang switch to control the light and fan with 2-gang using a Blue Fan Switch and a 2-1 Dimmer Switch?
I’m at a crossroads to figure out whether I should wait for the button controller and fan/light module to come out or proceed with adding two switches and expanding my switch box.
Using binding or association then yes it will function sans hub, internet, or any other smart devices/services. Binding does just that, binds the two smart devices so they communicate directly and almost instantly. About as close to having a wire go between them as possible with out the wire.
You are lucky that you have separate hots between the switch and fan/light. If you can expand it to a double gang that would give you more options. But the idea of these is that you wouldn’t need to do that. My advice is always if you’re are currently building/remodeling is to install a double gang box using 12-3 or 14-4 nm-b between the switch box and fixture box in the ceiling. This gives maximum utility and side steps the predicament many of us are in today. You could in that case use what inovelli is developing today and just put a blank in that spot or install another scene controller for even more capability, or if this doesn’t fit your fancy install separate fan and light switches next to each other.
So where you’re probably getting at is because I have the fortune of two hots running to the wall, its probably better to switch to two separate switches due to functionality. This makes a bit more sense since I don’t have to redo any wiring weirdness to get the fan and light to work. It’ll be a bit more expensive, but I want to do it right…I specifically had the J-boxes put in with my builder to have separate hots to control the light and fans separately.
I am fairly new to this home automation. I was trying to find this product, but it does not seem to be on Inovelli website. I also was wondering if this was the better choice to work with the Smart Fan/Light canopy module or what switch would you recommend? Thanks.
This project has become quite the undertaking, but we’re starting to make some great progress on the hardware. One of the challenges that we’re currently trying to solve for is to properly backlight both the etching part of the paddle as well as the notification LED’s. In addition, we’re trying to solve for the LED Bar effect as shown in this configuration of the switch:
We’d like to allow for people to have different colors available for the notification LED’s and the backlit part and so far the idea is to have a strip of LED’s run down the middle of the switch and then LED’s running down both sides. However, the challenge is the light bleed.
A competitors switch has solved this by blocking out the side LED’s but their LED’s are so tiny that it’s easy to accomplish. The manufacturer came back and said we could do the same thing, but the configuration would look like this:
We’re pushing back because we think they can accomplish the LED Bar effect by adding some light pipes and/or some sort of barrier to prevent the light from shining into the middle of the switch and we have a couple ideas sent over to them for review.
We should have some sort of answer before they leave for Chinese New Year which starts on February 7th.
