Zigbee Wall Outlet | Project Jambry

Very interesting. Is there something like this in market?

I wonder if that is what this outlet is doing.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-Decora-Edge-15-Amp-Tamper-Resistant-Duplex-Outlet-White-R02-E5325-0SW/322083558

I definitely wanted 2 USB’s, but they pushed back and said there wasn’t enough room on the PCB at this point.

It’s almost like you’re talking to our engineers lol. They said an air gap is not recommended for the following reason:

“I do not recommend adding any kind of air-gap, because two 15A sockets, a total of 30A current, air-gap will bring unreliable factors, such as contact heating; In addition, the air-gap needs to be large enough, and there is not enough structural space. If you are worried about freezing or going offline, you can add an MCU restart button at the bottom of the cover. It can only be operated by opening the cover.”

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Lol I saw that too. I really don’t understand why companies do this. I get it if it’s a, “dumb” outlet (I still don’t like it) but with a smart device, the depth is already a hindrance and if you have shallow boxes, forget about it.

Regarding the Wago’s, I really need to figure out how you’re talking to the engineers lol jk. @EricM_Inovelli brought up the Wago thing and they’re looking into it. We may have to sacrifice the switched outlet feature (ie: using an aux switch to turn on/off the outlet) for room on the PCB, but more to come.

The new Leviton does use a wego like connector. That is what that is on the outlet link you sent. It is patent pending and only Leviton can implement a spring loaded termination on outlets/switches.

And not even any more expensive than other outlets, if you’re buying them in bulk. It would be awesome to see these features becoming standard in the future. Not planning on building a new house anytime soon but if we redo our kitchen in a few years I’d want to use this style(anywhere I didn’t install an Inovelli smart outlet :wink:).

Yea we’d need to see the patent and use case and have patent lawyer review. There may be a way to get it for the Inovelli design.

I’ve learned that, “Patent Pending” is often a marketing term used to scare off smaller companies who don’t want to hire a lawyer as anyone can submit a patent and say something is patent pending, but that patent can get denied. Although, yes, definitely want to have a lawyer look at it to see if there’s a way around it.

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This is true. I know they had to work around the Wego patent to really come up with a design that worked as simple as a Wego, but didnt invade their patent. So even pending, it might be a loss. I’ll search for the patent paperwork to see and also pull up the Wego one. I beleive they worked around it by changing how the spring contact clamped on the wire. But the R&D needed to put into a new design and bypass both existing patents (unless Leviton is also able to get a design patent for all “Level locked wire terminals on an outlet/switch”), then that will kill any other design to add any kind of level lock/spring terminal into the outlet/switches, unless licensed it.

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In terms of the air-gap, if an MCU reboot would reset the device that’d be great and while we are piling on requirements, having the button do some kind of “firmware reset” or “default config reset” that’d be great too. Have it interact with some LED so I know that my button presses are working / received, and document the process, etc. :slight_smile:

Lots of speculation on the snap capability that I’d mentioned earlier. My thought is that sometimes, outlets are in a 2x2 configuration, or whatever you call it, where there are 4 outlets next to each other. Somewhere between rarely and never do folks need the extra amps, what they need are the extra plugs. IMHO, we are trying to shove 15 lbs of electronics in a 5 lb outlet (trying to keep this G-rated), and it seems to me one way to resolve this is to make a “snap on” product that provides extra features and gives you the extra space to shove those electronics to support those extra features.

So, for example, You might have something like this:

Where the “top” two outlets work on Relay A, and the bottom two outlets work on Relay B. These relays and all the embeded electronics would be on the “LEFT” outlet. You don’t need any additional electronics for the “RIGHT” outlet because you are just attaching the outlets to each other (top to top, bottom to bottom). What this gives you is a bunch of space now to shove more electronics that provide more features behind the “RIGHT” outlet. The “Snap On” outlet would be the “RIGHT” outlet and would be a different SKU that would be dependent on the “LEFT” outlet.

Another idea in terms of space, and I’m not an electrician, is that many times outlets are on a stud. It might not be too heavy of a lift for some folks to remove the one gang box and put in a 2 gang box, again, the intent is to give designers the physical space to add electronics and features.

Also, I’d push back on the designers on the Matter/Thread vs Zigbee response, cutting down SKUs and supporting both protocols is going to be important (imho) for the next several years. It will halve your hardware development costs and I think the hardware is going to support both protocols, it’s really a matter of managing the “dual-boot” firmware and having the required storage space for the code, or perhaps use the UART/SPI/SmartCard capability to load new code. If you want to be customer friendly provide connectivity to the UART to load new code. You could use the MCU button for these actions as well.

I wanted to apologize if any of my ideas are previously patented or so forth. I’m not researching my ideas too much, I’m just throwing things up against the wall here, and if they stick, great. I have to say, this is the first Inovelli thread that I’ve contributed on and I’m going to start reading through the other new product threads. This is a great process.

PLEASE do not include “Wago-like” connectors. Actual Wago 221s are great but there are a lot of sketchy knockoffs of them around. Use the real thing or nothing…

I would happily install an outlet with traditional screw terminals (preferably like in the Blue series light switches) or, less happily, with pigtails (for which I’d pick up some genuine Wagos, but others might prefer wire nuts). I would not use a newly-developed clamp-type connector.

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I would say keeping the same back-wired screw terminals as the blue/red switches use should be reasonable. I would prefer that these don’t have the traditional screw terminals that you have to wrap the wire around (that all of the $2 receptacles have).

And no pigtails, please. Cramming more wires into tight boxes will cause some people to hit box-fill limits.

I think Eric is saying that they are considering including levers for connections on the receptacle itself, not built in pigtails and providing wage-like connectors.

That said, any new connection method should be safe since the receptacles will go through and get certified from ETL (like the blue/red switches have) before Inovelli sells them.

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HARD pass on stab in connectors. Those are junk! The screw in terminals like the light switches for sure the best route!

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Anything but pigtails, imho. :slight_smile:

Dang I did not expect all the strong opinions on the, “Wago” backing. What’s the fuss about (genuinely curious)?

We’re trying to make life easier!

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+whatever to ‘keep the screw terminals like the switches have’

I know the lines between ‘be imaginative’ and ‘scope creep’ don’t exist here, and I think that’s not a good thing, but a great thing.

That said, if you can deliver this…

for ~$50, I don’t know that I would push too much further. To be both honest and blunt, I’m concerned that good/fast/cheap can’t be reconciled here. I hope I’m wrong. I want to be wrong for at least a dozen units, but after suffering with one bad smart built-in receptacle after another, I’m scared this one is going to get either scope-creeped into oblivion or suffer some engineering flaw because they try to do too much with too few resources (many different possibilities for ‘resources.’)

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The wire nut cartel has a huge negative publicity campaign out targeting Wago, because they speed up an electrician’s work thereby decreasing billable hours. :wink:

Last month, one of my colleagues at work was patting himself on the back for finally learning how to use lineman’s pliers to use wire nuts for some home renovation that he is doing. The next day, I handed him a zip-lock baggie with an assortment of Wago 221’s from my stash. Makes me feel like a drug-pusher. :rofl:

With that said, I am still a huge fan of the LZW-30-style switch screw terminals over a Wago clone for these outlets…

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Push-in / spring type connectors have to be designed perfectly for them to be reliable. Wago knows how to do it (they’ve been making 'em for more than half a century) but a lot of their competitors/knockoffs don’t. Search for “backstab outlets” and you’ll find plenty of horror stories.

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No backstabs. The Wago type connector being asked for would be lever locks. Push-in connectors should not be considered here.

A downside to using lever-type is that it’s one wire per lever, so to allow for 2 wires to connect would need 2 levers. A single screw with a plate can clamp 2 wires.

Honestly, I’ve used both Wago and wire nuts a lot and I’m meh about using Wagos for joining solid conductors. I can make a joint with 2-3 solid 14 gauge conductors and a wire nut just as fast, if not faster, as using a Wago. I do Wagos for stranded wire, so for light fixtures mostly. People also claim Wagos save with box space, but I just don’t see that either. None of this applies to receptacles though.

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Just so I’m clear (and for anyone else)…

By ‘backstab,’ you are referring to the springed push-in connection on cheap residential ‘builder-grade’ outlets, correct?

If so, I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that.

That said, there are Wagos all over my house, and I would still prefer a screw-down connection for this outlet (or any other ‘installable’ smart device.) Whether it is the same style as on the Inovelli (and other) smart switches or the more exposed style of a standard commercial-grade receptacle, I don’t have much of a preference. (Perhaps a slight lean toward the ‘Inovelli-style.’ Very slight lean.)

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I think the consensus was the higher power the USB C port the better, but just wanted to add my opinion in here. HomePod minis use 20w USB C, and from my experience there are few USB C outlets that can support them with the full power they need. So higher than 20w would be great! Also, using the same screws as your switches would be fine. Two wires per screw is quite nice depending on the install.

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If the buttons are removed, that may make more room for another USB-C port

Yes, but the buttons are staying lol. There needs to be a manual way to turn the power on/off for each outlet :slight_smile:

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