Blue/Red Series 2-1 Compatibility with 12v Transformers

[jburgod]

I have 10 12v halogen fixtures in my house. Over the weekend I replaced all the halogen MR16 bulbs with Soraa MR16 LED lamps. Then I replaced the 3 old Lutron dimmer switches with 2 Red Series and 1 Blue Series (all individual circuits).

7 of the 10 fixtures worked without issue, although dimming mileage seems to vary. Below 50% some of the LED lamps drop before others. I have various issues with the other 3 fixtures that I believe are likely transformer related. 1 is dead (it was dead before, but I thought the halogen bulb had just burned out), 1 constantly blinks and 1 starts normal, but then dims approximately 20-25%.

I pulled one of the fixtures today to see what I was dealing with. Now I am down a transformer-to-switch compatibility rabbit whole.

I decided it was best to post my questions here and see what shakes out.

Here is an image of the existing transformer:

My guess is the 20W minimum load is the cause of the variable dimming behavior.

I’m looking at 2 different transformer replacements.

That same brand, WAC Lighting, has an R2 of the same transformer that now has a 1W minimum load: Electronic Remote Transformer - 120V/12V Non-Enclosed Power Supply | WAC Lighting

The other option I pulled from the Soraa LED lamp compatibility list. RL12-60M-LED - Hatch Lighting

I could not help but notice both transformers mention ELV dimmers.

Given that 7 of the 10 fixtures are working fine, I am probably over thinking this, but a little research and some second opinions can’t hurt.

I initially found this link that does a great job explaining most of the dimmer jargon: [had to remove the link for the post to be accepted]

Then I found this prior community post: [had to remove the link for the post to be accepted]

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything conclusive on compatibility or issues. Before I spent a bunch more money on this project, I thought I would seek some advice. I am considering the replacement of all 10 transformers with the hope of improving dimmer performance.

Is anyone else using the Gen3 (VZM31-SN/VZW31-SN) dimmers with 12v transformers without issue? Like I said, 7 of the 10 seem to work fine, but I’m interested in a broader experience pool.

Is there any chance of dimmer damage in this situation?

Any other thoughts or suggestions that I may not have thought to ask?

Thanks in advance!

[Bry]

@jburgod

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything conclusive on compatibility or issues.

Unfortunately, neither the Red 2-1 Dimmer nor the Blue 2-1 Dimmer are rated (or designed) for use as an ELV dimmer for transformer use.

From the Red and Blue 2-1 Dimmer FAQs:

@jburgod

Is there any chance of dimmer damage in this situation?

Yes, a dimmer can overheat when it’s controlling a load it’s not designed for. Inovelli has added thermal protection to the 2-1s. Care to guess why???

[jburgod]

Thank you for the very quick response.

For these lights it sounds like I am out of luck, as Inovelli does not have a switch on the market that will work. The On/Off Switch (w/Temperature and Humidity Sensing) appears to be in beta. Am I understanding that correctly?

I did sign up to get notified of the release.

Until then, does anyone have an alternative suggestion that might work? (I realize that is an odd question for an Inovelli forum, so I will understand if no one wants to share.)

Is there a creative way I could use an Aeotec Nano Dimmer with the 2-1 dimmers to simulate a functioning switch?

[Bry]

@jburgod

alternative suggestion

If you could make do with on/off, then wait for the Project Vernacular switch. I’d say it’s under development. Otherwise, I’d look to other manufacturers that market a smart ELV dimmer.

[PJF]

That’s not a transformer, it’s a power supply. A simple transformer can’t change the output frequency to 20kHz.

[jburgod]

Does this change any of the facts stated above or do they all still apply?

[Bry]

@jburgod

Does this change any of the facts

No. That superfluous tidbit is really just splitting hairs.

If you refer to the FAQ section of the product page, you’ll see that the switch isn’t rated for any lighting that uses a transformer or requires an ELV dimmer. (Power supplies contain transformers, and refering to your picture, the manufacturer labeled it as a transformer.) So unfortunately, if it uses a transformer, power supply or flux capacitor, the switch isn’t rated for it.

@jburgod

I could not help but notice both transformers mention ELV dimmers.

ELV (Electronic Low Voltage) dimmers are specially designed to work with lighting containing transformers, using a compatible dimming technique. So if that is the recommended dimmer type, you should probably use an ELV dimmer to get the optimum experience.

[PJF]

ELV is Electronic transformer Low Voltage. Most LED fixtures use what would be an electronic low voltage supply containing a transformer. The dimmer doesn’t see a transformer load, it sees a capacitive load from the input rectifier and filter before the transformer. In theory, trailing edge dimming works better for these.

Every Inovelli dimmer I own is installed on LED lighting that uses what would be classed as a ELV power supply, yes with a transformer in it. They all work fine driving this LED lighting. Anyone with LED wafer lights that have the power supply box has an ELV “transformer” guaranteed. The LEDs I’ve tried (bulbs and wafers) all worked better with trailing edge dimming. I’m using RED devices and they can be switched to trailing edge. I believe the Blue with the new firmware can also be switched.

MLV is Magnetic Transformer Low Voltage. This means the dimmer is driving the coil of a 60Hz transformer directly. This can’t be run by these dimmers. If these were SCR dimmers and not MOSFET then they could operate transformers. They are leading edge dimmed but the transformer tries to force the current to keep flowing past the zero crossing and the MOSFET shuts off right at the zero crossing and that causes issues.

The ELV disclaimer is a CYA. If it truely couldn’t be used on any circuit that contained a transformer then that would mean it was incompatible with a LOT of the LED lighting available today.

[jburgod]

@PJF were you able to configure your Red Series 2-1 to trailing edge?

I found instructions at the link below but the button combination doesn’t seem to do anything. Red Series 2-1 Firmware Changelog | VZW31-SN

Confirmed firmware is 1.02
[dev:228] 2024-09-24 08:31:48.502 PM[info] Version Report - FirmwareVersion: 1.02, ProtocolVersion: 7.18, HardwareVersion: 1

I also tried setting parameter 26 from within Hubitat, but the log tells me parameter 26 is undefined. Log entry:
[dev:228] 2024-09-24 08:11:10.151 PM[info] 1a Test Dimmer Config Report: P26=0 [0x00] Undefined Parameter 26

[EricM_Inovelli]

I believe it is only undefined in the driver, but it looks like it is set to 0. Does it let you set it to 1?

0 = leading
1 = trailing

Not sure why the combo button isn’t working for you though. Red Series 2-1 Switch • Button Combinations, Quick Tap Sequences & Local Configuration Options | Inovelli Help Center

[PJF]

Yes, I did. I used zwave-js-ui to do it, which allows you to raw set any parameter.

[EricM_Inovelli]

@jburgod Should work as well in Hubitat with the command setParameter (try setting it to 1).

[jburgod]

@EricM_Inovelli

Should work as well in Hubitat with the command setParameter (try setting it to 1).

This is what I was trying when this entry showed up in the log…

[dev:228] 2024-09-24 08:11:10.151 PM[info] 1a Test Dimmer Config Report: P26=0 [0x00] Undefined Parameter 26

I’ll try again later today.

[EricM_Inovelli]

I tested on my switch and it seemed to change from 0 to 1 and then back to 0.

If it isn’t working it might need a factory reset, but that would surprise me. Let us know.

[jburgod]

No luck over here. This is what the log (info & trace enabled) show when I attempt to set the parameter:

[jburgod]

I noticed my driver version was from February 2024. I decided to update to the latest version and test again.

Now get the same behavior as you:

This seems to indicate the parameter has been updated.

Should the dimmingMethod reflect this change?

[EricM_Inovelli]

Hmmm, that might be a bug in the driver (just not displaying the correct info). You refreshed the page and it still says Leading edge? Did you notice a difference in the bulb output?

[EricM_Inovelli]

I did just update the driver to properly change the “dimmingMethod” variable to Trailing edge when it is changed with the setParameter command. This was just a display issue in the driver.