Need wiring help for weird 3-Way. Neutral in one box, but jury rigged 2nd box wired through the bulb

[kreene1987]

@skarden

The only thing else that would be nice for you to make is maybe a remote, ala the Pico remote - but I think that should be a fairly low priority as most people will probably use Alexa/Google to talk to the devices and/or use a dashboard ala Hubitat or the Alexa or Google app.

Paddle Remote | Project BFF

@Courtney_Inovelli and I will be leading this project. Cut her some slack as this is the first one she’s taking on! Introduction As mentioned in the 2020 Product Roadmap this is one of the projects slated for 2020. In addition, this thread serves multiple purposes. Allows us to keep you updated on the project status (either good or bad) Allows you to participate and help us develop amazing products with you Enjoy each other’s company and have fun talking home automation How this initial…

Oh yeah baby!!!

[skarden]

My electrician thinks that very well could be it, but won’t know until he looks into the light fixture. As he wants to only make one more trip out here could you please post a link to how that would be wired up with an Inovelli Red dimmer and an Aux switch. That way, if that is the situation he can do it right then.

Is the white wire with the black dot, which is connect to the black wire that does not go to the common screw, a traveler wire?

BTW, since it seems the Aux switch is just sending whatever is pushed to the Inovelli, can it do multi-taps and/or dimming?

[harjms]

@skarden

BTW, since it seems the Aux switch is just sending whatever is pushed to the Inovelli, can it do multi-taps and/or dimming?

No, the Inovelli cannot understand multi-taps coming from the AUX switch. Hopefully down the road, it will be able to do so.

[skarden]

With the original switches back in place I investigated what is hot and what is not in the 2 boxes with the 4 combinations of switch 1 and 2 being up or down. With the below results does that help you tell me how to wire up the Aux switch, which goes in the switch one box as there is no neutral in that box, and the Inovelli Red dimer which goes into the switch two box as there is a neutral wire there? At the bottom I came up with a possible solution, but I don’t know if it will work.

Each switch has a traveler to the left, T1, a Common on the right top, and a Traveler on the lower right, T2.

One big P.S. if it helps: I originally bought 2 Inovelli Red dimmers as I didn’t know I didn’t have a neutral in switch 1.

	Switch 1	Switch 2	Light On/Off
	Up	Up	Off
T1	Hot	Not
Common	Not	Hot
T2	Not	Hot
	Switch 1	Switch 2	Light On/Off
	Down	Up	On
T1	Hot	Not
Common	Hot	Hot
T2	Not	Hot
	Switch 1	Switch 2	Light On/Off
	Up	Down	On
T1	Not	Hot
Common	Hot	Hot
T2	Hot	Not
	Switch 1	Switch 2	Light On/Off
	Down	Down	Off
T1	Not	Hot
Common	Not	Hot
T2	Hot	Not

Observations:
The Common on Switch 2 is always hot.
When Switch 2 is up Switch 2 T2 and Common are hot and Switch 1 T1 is hot
When Switch 2 is down Switch 2 T1 and Common are hot and Switch 1 T2 is hot

I made the following diagram that shows what the chart is saying. As you can see, Traveler 1 in Switch 1 is wired to Traveler 2 in Switch 2, not that it really matters.

I was wondering if the below diagram shows a possible solution. The idea is to use the two travelers in switch box 2 to send a neutral and line to switch box 1 and then use two Inovelli Red dimmers (“RD”). I was thinking I could do this as there are 2 holes for the neutral and line in each RD. Is there any reason this wouldn’t work?

[stu1811]

You cannot direct write two Inovelli switches or dimmers together. You have to use associations. The non load switch must have a neutral. Load switch can be neutral or non neutral.

Can I Install Multiple Smart Switches in a 3-Way, 4-Way, etc?

[skarden]

I’m only using the travelers to supply the neutral and line. I would then do an association to control them using Switch 2 as the Source (slave) and Switch 1 as the Destination (master).

[stu1811]

Got it. I did the same. The key is to set param 12 (zwave association behavior) to 11 on the non load switch

[skarden]

@stu1811

set param 12 (zwave association behavior) to 11 on the non load switch

Thanks! I hadn’t done that before. Do you know why 11, timer, 3-way and local? vs. any of the other choices? Is there someplace that describes what all the options mean and how to choose the correct one?

[stu1811]

I’m not sure on use cases for the other options. Only when associating dimmers do I set param 12. If you don’t the switches fight back and forth over the state of the switch. IIRC option 11 is everything except back to the hub.

[skarden]

Thanks. I’m just trying to understand everything instead of just blindly following instructions, which is what I’m still doing. But, that seems to be working and may have kept me out of trouble.

[kreene1987]

@stu1811

Got it. I did the same. The key is to set param 12 (zwave association behavior) to 11 on the non load switch

Can you help me understand this? I keep seeing it but want to understand WHY if associations are uni-directional and there are 2 groups for level control (3 and 4).

Edit: If 4 controls from master to slave, and 3 controls from slave to master, where is the looping happening I guess.

[stu1811]

You should setup group 3 and 4 in both directions. Total of 4 associations.

This quote has some good details on the different association groups.

@Chris

To explain:
The association groups send different data. Group 2 sends a BASIC_SET command- the Z-wave dumb ‘turn on’ or ‘turn off’ that will work on almost anything. Group 3 sends SWITCH_MULTILEVEL_SET, which tells the switch what actual level to set to (0-99). Group 4 sends SWITCH_MULTILEVEL_START/STOP_LEVEL_CHANGE, which allows ‘live’ dimming.
Everything Group 2 does (on/off), Group 3 does better. A Group 2 assocation will carry on and off commands over, but a Group 3 association will keep the two switches actually synced up including dimmer level.

BUT the really important one is Parameter 12. P12 controls association behavior- what data is forwarded to associated switches. By default it sends everything, including data it gets from other associated switches. This creates a loop- you do something on one switch, it gets sent to the second switch, which sends it to the first switch, which sends it to the second switch, etc etc etc. Setting P12 to 11 on one of the switches breaks that loop.

[kreene1987]

Wow, ok I’ve been giving potentially inaccurate advice for a LONG time now. WE NEED A WIKI @Eric_Inovelli!!!

Mine seems to work just fine with:
Group 2 Master (with load) to slave
Group 4 Master to slave

Group 3 Slave to Master

But it in fact does NOT follow the dimming, just sends once released and updates the slave switch. On/Off is instant.

Will have to test more it seems.

[Eric_Inovelli]

Lol working on it brotha!

[RyCam]

@skarden

Is there someplace that describes what all the options mean and how to choose the correct one?

I found the information in this post (expand):

Hubitat or HomeAssistant for inovelli?

Association group 1 (Lifeline): This is the device your switch communicates status updates to. It is set automatically when you include the dimmer, and should almost always point to your hub. Association group 2 (Basic Command Class): This is used to send basic on/off/dim commands to another device. Almost all devices support this type of command. It can be used to send on, off, or a dim level, but does not support dimming duration, and does not allow you to hold the button down to graduall…