Two LZW31-SN in three-way using associations - LED sync

Wiring Discussion
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#1

Hi, guys. From reading the forums, I see there is some issues with dimming level LED sync and I am trying to find a way around that. I wrote my own software using OpenZWave, so I’m not able to use a provided tool to set the associations, so I am looking for a little clarification.

  • I have two of the dimmers in a three-way configuration
  • I set an association from the aux (Z-Wave source) dimmer to the main dimmer (Z-wave target) on group index 2.
  • When I turn on the aux switch, it updates the LED on the main switch, but using the main switch does not update the aux.

What’s the prescribed low level way to get these things synced? Can this be fixed by setting up an additional association in the other direction (main-> aux, group 2), or is that going bounce back and forth forever? I can take care of it in software, but I’d prefer an implicit hardware solution.

Thank you,
Josh Usovsky

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#2

I have the same problem with the LED dimming level not syncing, did anyone come up with a solution for this? I’m using SmartThings and used the z-wave association tool. Is there a software workaround (WebCore or another association group) to get the LED’s sync’d?

#3

@Eric_Inovelli if you have a chance, could you chime in on this topic? I have a number of three and four way circuits that I’d like to be able to use matching dimmers for while also keeping the led bar in sync.

Is there any hope of this being supported purely with zwave associations at some point?"

#4

I just tested this the other day with two Red dimmers.

First, pick one of the dimmers; if you have smart bulbs make it the one that isn’t associated to the smart bulbs. Set Parameter 12 to be 11 (per EricM). This may take a tweak to make Parameter 12 appear as an option. This part is essential though as you get a loop without it where the switches keep trying to update each other until you pull the airgap switch.

Then associate both dimmers to each other with Group 3 and Group 4.

And then it works. Two dimmers, with LED bars that stay in sync.

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3-Way w/ 2 LZW31-SN
LZW31-SN not giving a good experience with Smart Light (Philips Hue)
#5

I’ll defer to @EricM_Inovelli on this one. The problem we face is that there is limited memory to work with on the switches as we had to use an additional MCU to handle the current dimmers.

We may be able to add this to an alternate firmware Eric’s working on with the manufacturer, but I can’t remember what’s all on that list.

#6

Is there a resource that shows exactly what each Group is for (1, 2, 3, etc)? I recently setup my 3-way exactly this way and it works beautifully. I’m trying to replicate this for a 4-way setup but don’t have enough knowledge of Groups.

#7

As @Chris mentioned you can do this by associating the two dimmers to each other with group 3 & 4. Make sure you set parameter 12 to 11 on one of them so that you don’t create an association loop.

@Nope The manual has a description of the association groups for our devices.

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#8

I am curious what is parameter 12? Is there a list of the parameters and the possible values? I don’t see this in the manual or the changelogs for the firmware.

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#9

P12 is ‘association behavior’. It’s only been documented (that I can find) on the Z-Wave Alliance site.

#10

For quick reference:

When should the switch send commands to associated devices?

01 - local
02 - 3way
03 - 3way & local
04 - z-wave hub
05 - z-wave hub & local
06 - z-wave hub & 3-way
07 - z-wave hub & local & 3way
08 - timer
09 - timer & local
10 - timer & 3-way
11 - timer & 3-way & local
12 - timer & z-wave hub
13 - timer & z-wave hub & local
14 - timer & z-wave hub & 3-way
15 - all

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#11

I just wanted to follow up on this to confirm that all works as expected. I now have two different three way circuits setup with associations as described here, one with 2x LZW31-SN and the other with a LZW31-SN and LZW31.

By the way @EricM_Inovelli, given the discussion above and my experience the documentation here is misleading. Specifically this section:

Non-Synced LED Bars: The LED Bars will not be in sync with one another – this is more prominent on the dimmer as it will not show the correct level.

Honestly this was part of the reason that I held off on investing in any of the Inovelli switches. I’m glad to find out that it works as expected with the group 3/4 associations – I really hate mismatched switches.

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LZW31-SN Association Sync LED Bar
LZW31-SN not giving a good experience with Smart Light (Philips Hue)
3/4-way dimmable from all locations?
#12

Thanks for pointing this out. The documentation does need to be updated.

#13

Is it possible to use 3 LZW31-SN in a 4-way setup and configure them all to stay in sync? I currently using a single LZW31-SN and 2 GE Aux switches for the 4-way.

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#14

I was having troubles with associations between my switch and bulbs earlier this week. By chance based on this thread is there some tips to improve this article as well? https://support.inovelli.com/portal/en/kb/articles/how-to-use-the-z-wave-association-tool-hubitat

What is group 3?
Is P12 change always required for all associations?

Can a how to/video be created for how to set up associated Inovelli products with each other, proving there is no better duo :stuck_out_tongue:

#15

@kelchm and @dvellek - thanks for the push guys, I put it on my calendar to update this tomorrow!

Edit: Thursday lol

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#16

Glad I found this thread. I’m sitting here trying desperately to decide between the Red Series Dimmers and the currently-on-sale HomeSeer HS-WD200+ dimmers for my basement remodel.

Your documentation at https://support.inovelli.com/portal/en/kb/articles/can-i-install-multiple-smart-switches-in-a-3-way-4-way-etc#Multi-Smart_Switch_Limitations still reports that it’s not possible to sync the LEDs on your dimmers. If that could be formally updated, it would help me make a more informed decision for my purchase!

#17

In terms of updating documentation for, https://support.inovelli.com/portal/en/kb/articles/can-i-install-multiple-smart-switches-in-a-3-way-4-way-etc, here is how I just set it up but I am still missing once piece so this post is mostly to confirm I made it this far correctly (if so, my post helps others understand) and to get the final improvement I am looking for.

Hallway Dimmer Load (switch A from the wiring diagram)
1 - Installed according to diagram and added to Habitat while ensuring security is at S0
2 - Association Behavior When… = 11
3 - Did NOT set a value for Switch Type
4 - Personal preferences (ramp rate =0, Min level = 39, state after power restored = 100)

Hallway Dimmer (switch B from the wiring diagram) (will be the device I add to google for voice commands)
1 - Installed according to diagram and added to Habitat while ensuring security is at S0
2 - Did NOT set a value for Switch Type
3 - Personal preferences (ramp rate =0, Min level = 39, state after power restored = 100)

Associations (some documentation say 2 comments say 3 so I did them both to be safe)
1 - Source Hallway Dimmer, Destination Hallway Dimmer Load, Group 2
2 - Source Hallway Dimmer, Destination Hallway Dimmer Load, Group 3
3 - Source Hallway Dimmer, Destination Hallway Dimmer Load, Group 4

I am happy to report with these instructions everything is working as expected when physically/google using hallway dimmer (lights work and hallway dimmer load LED is completely synced)

Only missing piece I have is when I physically use Hallway Dimmer Load the LED for hallway dimmer is not synced. Understanding slave/master associations I can understand this, but what is the workaround to get them to be synced when using the load dimmer (totally fine if needs a rule)

2 Associated Dimmers 2 Loads
#18

Thanks for pointing this out! Let me connect with @EricM_Inovelli and we’ll get it updated :slight_smile:

Also, thanks @dvellek for writing these out, very helpful!

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#19

Documentation at https://support.inovelli.com/portal/en/kb/articles/can-i-install-multiple-smart-switches-in-a-3-way-4-way-etc#Multi-Smart_Switch_Limitations still says:

The main drawback is probably that the “slave” (non-load) switch doesn’t show the other switches level, but you can make that less annoying by turning the switch off or to 99% and disabling the relay.

I really want to pull the trigger on these, but I’m waiting for official confirmation in your documentation that I can correctly sync the LEDs.

#20

Looking at your notes, it sounds like you only set up the associations in one direction. You need to create the associations in both directions in order for things to stay in sync.

By the way, there’s no need to use group 2 associations at all – those are for the ‘basic set’ which is something of a legacy type of association at this point. Group 3 and 4 are all that are needed.

Despite the lack of updates to the documentation it definitely works as expected with LZW-31/LZW-31SN. At this point I have four different circuits setup with associations and everything syncs as expected.