Blue Series Dimming Tech

Switches General Discussion
,
#112

Yeah, I’m new to home automation, and the Blue series are basically the first devices I’ve bought (I did get one power outlet while waiting for the Blues). From what I saw, the company culture is great, and I really liked how y’all work closely with the community. That, along with the switches’ feature list is why I decided to buy the switches. After receiving the switches, I still think the smart features are great (e.g., all the parameters that can be controlled, the notification LEDs), but the core switch/dimming functionality is kinda meh.

As someone else mentioned, while y’all intended for this to be a 2-in-1 on/off and dimmer, I don’t think it can be considered an on/off switch. While almost all of my lights are dimmable, I still have two that are not, and while I’d like to have a smart switch control them, I know they’re not going to handle the choppy waveform well.

I remember reading that y’all don’t have an in-house electronics engineer, but perhaps it’d be worth hiring one as a consultant to validate future designs to make sure it does the things you want it to do, and to point out any potential issues.

2 Likes
#114
#115

I apologize for not having the time to properly respond here, but it seems this thread has caught some attention, so I’ll take the time to respond as best as I can.

From what I am reading, it appears there are two things we’re talking through, correct?

  • Definition of On/Off
  • Leading vs Trailing Edge

If there’s something more, please let me know.

__

On/Off Discussion

I will take the heat on this one, as I was the one who named the switch a 2-1, which I personally still believe is true.

I understand the argument that an on/off switch should be one that completely shuts off the load and there should be a pure sine wave. If I’m being honest, I didn’t really understand it until everyone brought out their oscilloscopes and explained what it should look like.

To me, an On/Off switch is one that turns lights on and off and in most cases, it does just that.

There are, of course, exceptions such as fluorescent lights. This is common in the industry and I think the folks at Zooz summed it up well:

There is also an argument that the switch should be able to turn an outlet on/off and that is currently possible, but we do not advertise it to do so because of a safety concern (people plugging in their vacuum cleaners, space heaters, etc) and the switch cannot handle a strong inductive load.

Finally, I believe it comes down to how this switch is advertised. Yes, initially we thought this would be able to handle ceiling fans and I stated that it would. But later in the same thread, I also stated that it couldn’t due to UL and the actual product page has had this stated there as well.

On the official product page, I feel we’ve been clear about what this product can and cannot do. But I’m always open to making it better.

I do understand the arguments and they are valid arguments, which leads me to my next point…

We have been testing a pure sine wave parameter that should be available to you guys shortly. I want to run some final tests on it, but from what I’m seeing from the oscilloscope readings our beta testers have done, they look promising.

Leading vs Trailing Edge
This topic has been debated about for a while and somewhere in the forum I outlined the reasoning why we had to go with Leading Edge. It boils down to allowing us to have the capability to use a neutral and non-neutral or an aux and dumb switch. Everyone wants to have a choice in their installation and unfortunately that comes with tradeoffs. Trailing Edge being one of them.

Now, I will say we are working on ways to optimize the bulb flickering and just received a file today that addresses certain scenarios. I want to fully test this firmware file before throwing it to the wolves.

–

Here’s what I want to get across though. I do read through most of these comments and I do take these suggestions to heart. These switches, as dumb as it may sound, are a reflection of us and we are extremely proud of them.

So to hear things like, “these switches are meh” or, “we need to get the basics right”, etc kind of irks me as it just seems like we’re all taking a dump on a product we’re proud of. I know it’s your personal opinions and that’s fine, just disappointing.

I know sometimes I may come off as defensive and I’m trying to work on that (I feel like I do a good job at tempering what I want to say lol) and I try to go into these conversations with an open mind. For the most part, I agree with you guys – without you, there would be no Inovelli. You are what makes us who we are and make our products what they are.

I believe in my heart that most of you have the best intentions in mind when you’re commenting on our switches and I hold onto that.

At the end of the day, we want to continue to have the best switches in the market and if that means taking a long hard look at the technology behind it, I’m all for it. I can’t promise you it will change as it’s impossible to please everyone, but I can promise you that we will look into it and have an open discussion as I try to do.

–

Give me a week or two and I hope you all will be excited about the firmware release we’re working on to address some of these concerns.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

27 Likes
#116

Long time lurker, first time poster. I really appreciate the candid and honest discussions taking place in these forums. I won’t need any of these products for a year until my house is done, but I will definitely be making use of some of them when I am. I’m hoping to mostly use Zigbee lights, and therefore the limitations of the blue series won’t impact me much, but I would love if we figured out the dimming and switching issues before then so that I can use these switches throughout the entire house even when we’re not using Zigbee lighting.

A lot of people, myself included, who are into smart homes are pretty geeky, and a lot of us have testing gear the average person does not. I think we just find it a little weird how small your company is, and that you don’t have the same resources some of us do. But we are not normal.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned when working with other companies, particularly in another country, is trust, but verify. I do think you guys should get some on premise help, or a nearby firm to help you test the boundaries of what you are receiving, rather than trusting the vendor to do the right thing.

2 Likes
#117

+1 with emphasis. The head of our mechanical engineering department preaches this with his two rules:

Rule #1: all vendors lie.
Rule #2: see rule #1.

Add in the language barrier, and even a mostly-honest vendor can end up delivering something that doesn’t fit expectations. @Eric_Inovelli you should be proud of these switches! On the smart side the number of parameters and the flexibility blows everyone else’s products away. Dissappointment in our reaction to the relay not being parallel to the dimmer and the leading edge dimming is understandable, but from our perspective there’s disappointment, too. These two issues were an unanticipated setback for us, and those always come with frustration. It sounds like our message is resonating, and I’m optimistic and hopeful that future iterations incorporate changes that eliminate the current crop of fundamental performance issues.

2 Likes
#118

Just chiming in to say that I definitely agree with everyone that we need some sort of engineer to verify everything. I think the problem we run into is twofold:

  1. Where do I find someone that we would only need for a few hours here and there? We can’t afford a full time engineer and honestly I’m not sure we would have the project(s) to take up 40hrs/wk
  2. Overhead – this is the big one – right now we just simply cannot afford an engineer and have been trying to get by without one as, for the most part, China has done a great job.

Now one can argue that we can’t afford not to get someone and that’s where I’m at right now. I know we need someone, but where do we find one? And find one that we can also trust?

If I’m being completely open here, COVID and the last couple years has done some incredible damage to cashflow which we’re finally starting to get out of. But, there’s still a ways to go. I won’t bore everyone with the nitty gritty, but the gist of it is that we’re trying to climb out of the back-order/pre-order cycle where we place an order for product, but by the time it gets here, it’s all sold out and the cycle continues.

We do much better cashflow-wise when we’re fully in stock and unfortunately due to us being out of stock, we’re running lean and we’ve had to watch every nickel/dime (I’m exaggerating, but also not really).

–

Just trying to paint a picture right now of where we’re at.

So how do we solve this?

Well, there are a couple of options, but I’m open to any and all feedback:

  1. We have a group of passionate community members who have a background in engineering who can verify and we compensate them somehow – be it free product, an hourly rate, or something
  2. We wait it out a bit until we’re in a better place capital-wise – I’m hoping based on some insider info that we will be out of this mess within the next few months, but you never know. I feel like I always am saying that and something inevitably comes up.

Thoughts?

4 Likes
Introducing Inovelli Rewards
#119

Option one is definitely a good place to start and then expand into option two as capital becomes available. I’ve had the privilege of helping beta test the latest set of switches and there are some very knowledgeable community members volunteering their time. Personally i find it enlightening (snicker) and I’ve learned a bunch from the other members.

4 Likes
#120

@Eric_Inovelli

I really appreciate how candid you have been in your responses here. It’s not my decision to make, but I would argue that you are NOT clear enough in the marketing for what the switch is and is not capable of. You are marketing to the DIY community, who doesn’t always necessarilly know (or care to look at) the difference between the wattage ratings of switches. They will assume that an on/off switch would be capable of supporting anything a normal on/off switch would. And IMO an on/off switch SHOULD. I understand you look at Zooz as your competitor and they have made a market selling products at a cheap price point.

However, I don’t think looking at the lowest common denominator and trying to emulate them is a good path to success. It’s more valuable to look at what the long-time players in the switch industry are doing. Leviton’s on/off switches are designed to support 15A hardwired outlets. In fact, I struggle to think of scenarios where I would want an on/off switch that isn’t capable of doing that. What you have is a switch (actually dimmer) that is ONLY capable of lighting, and if that’s what you are after you need to make it 100% clear that it does not support anything other than lighting.

People will do inevitably things they shouldn’t, despite any warnings. If you aren’t 100% clear of the switches capabilities, when someone’s switch melts (or the house burns down), whose reputation is on the line? Do you think “well the tech specs say it only supports 600W LEDs, and there is a UL number that they should have looked up listed” is a valid defense?

I know I’m one of the few naysayers here, but I’m not trying to be a complete downer. I love what you guys are doing and want to see you succeed.

I will add that I consider myself fairly tech-savvy and I incorrectly assumed that the 2-1 would be capable of numerous on/off duties around the house. I’m sure there are plenty of others that made or will make the same mistake. I was hoping to go all in with your products, and now am trying to figure out what I should do. Having mismatches switches drives me crazy, and you don’t offer a true on/off, so I need to look elsewhere for that and it’s unfortunate.

2 Likes
#121

Yes.

2 Likes
#122

Not true. Only the 15A On/Off switch is rated for 15A; 1500W incandescent or 3/4 HP motor loads. Model: D215S-2RW

However, look really close at the Safety notes found in all their manuals (15A or non-neutral switch). Here’s the a screenshot directly from the 15A model manual.

image
image1125×2436 276 KB

So yes, their 15A SKU can support up to 15A, but it is not meant to control a receptacle as noted. If a house burned down an due to someone used a large amperage load and caused the switch to catch fire; insurance would investigate and find the end user installed the product incorrectly. It does not follow NEC regulations and they would not have to pay out money for the repairs or replacement. He or she could attempt to sue the company, but he or she would not have a good case against the company. It is clearly identified in the manual and misuse of the product is not the companies fault.

7 Likes
#123

I know I’m about to start a flurry of responses with this, but I wanted to at least keep everyone in the loop of what we’re testing against some of these concerns.

I’ll start with the first one because I’m not quite ready to discuss the second one as we’re still tweaking and testing.

One of the concerns is this switch needs to be capable of turning things completely on and off in order to be called an on/off switch.

We have been testing a parameter that allows for a full sine wave and I personally had a situation where I have a florescent ballast in my closet that hummed like crazy when I put the switch on it – even in on/off mode.

image

Testing the, “full sine wave” parameter eliminated all the humming and the light works as intended.

A few notes before watching the videos:

  • You’ll have to turn up the volume on the first one to hear the buzzing – I can try to get a better one tonight, I was just excited to test it yesterday
  • I still had the 500ms delay on so keep that in mind
  • I am talking weird bc I was trying to be quiet – I swear I’m not creepy
  • I found out about this parameter when I was in the basement and immediately went upstairs to test it out and when I say immediately, I mean I ran up both flights of stairs so I was out of breath (I tested it with full sine wave first, that’s why I’m panting like crazy in the second video, but normal in the first)

Before (No Full Sine Wave)

After (Full Sine Wave)

After some further testing, we plan to roll this out as a beta firmware. We still stand by the fact that it’s not UL rated for exhaust or ceiling fans and for safety concerns, these should not be used on outlets, but this should at least help with some buzzing and other lights that don’t fully turn off.

EDIT: Forgot to share the oscilloscope reading of this:

image
image1592×954 107 KB

EDIT 2: Forgot to also mention that as of right now this is only available in a neutral, single-pole setting.

–

And if you think this is exciting, wait until I’m able to talk about the second feature that’s coming…

20 Likes
Blue switch on a circuit with incandescents and fluorescents results in fluorescents flickering
#124

Just to confirm, that parameter will only be relevant in single-pole, non-dimming usecases?

Blue 2-1 Smooth Dimming Issues
#125

Single Pole yes. No restriction on dimming.

#126

This looks great! I can’t wait to try out the new FW (and hear about the 2nd feature haha)

1 Like
#127

Thanks for clarifying. Stating the obvious, would be great to see in a multi way setup (even if neutral required), but an improvement nonetheless.

2 Likes
#128

Not sure what you mean. Full Wave is not available with dimming. Unless you’re thinking about the other feature which Eric hasn’t publicly announced yet

#129

Oh right. On/off mode only. I’m confusing thing. :grimacing:

2 Likes
#130

You could always use two blue switches and bind them together using Zigbee to make this work.

#131

Awesome to hear about the full sine wave option!

Any news on this? For what it’s worth, I’d rank my wishlist:

  1. Dim lower: I have a 30W LED fixture in my bedroom (the kind with a bunch of LED chips on a circuit board); at the lowest dimming level, the switch reports 0.2W power consumption, but I’d guesstimate that it looks as bright as a 40W incandescent. I was hoping for somewhere around a 4W night light level. (And no, it’s not 100x as bright at full power :slight_smile: )
  2. Full sine wave output in on/off mode: sounds like this done!
  3. And barely making my list, trailing edge dimming: my lights all work fine with leading edge, so I’m completely fine with trailing edge not being possible. But it does seem to be the better method in general.
#132

Is there an update on the issues discussed here? In really struggling to get these switches to dim anything smoothly - I’ve already tried 4 different styles of LED bulbs and all have exhibited undesirable characteristics that I’m hoping will at least be partially resolved by the various fixes that have already been discussed in this thread.

I’m coming from a bunch of TP-Link Kasa dimmers that I got fed up with and I was really looking forward to these new switches, but the dimming capabilities definitely have some room for improvement.

Looking forward to hearing what the new feature is as well!

5 Likes